The Real You
1:1 Long-Form Interviews with Interesting People Doing Amazing Things
In-depth discussion of people's journeys to tap into their full potential and find ways to be the truest version of themselves.
The Real You
EP 9: Embracing Change: Natalie’s Transition from Finance to Coaching
What does it take to leave a high-flying career in finance and find true fulfillment in helping others?
Tune in as we explore this remarkable journey with Natalie Serebrennik, a former banker turned certified career coach.
For nearly 17 years, Natalie navigated the competitive and often challenging world of capital markets at BMO, always seeking a sense of belonging. Her story is one of overcoming fear, embracing uncertainty, and finding one's career "home," offering invaluable insights for anyone at a crossroads in their professional life.
Natalie candidly shares how she transitioned from the lucrative yet demanding world of banking to the rewarding realm of coaching. We discuss the shift from prioritizing financial success to making a meaningful impact on others and the entrepreneurial challenges that come with starting anew.
Throughout our conversation, Natalie provides practical advice on leveraging past experiences and relationships to navigate career changes confidently, stressing the importance of passion and the fear of regret that often accompanies such decisions.
We also delve into critical topics like self-advocacy, the role of emotional intelligence in leadership, and achieving work-life balance. Natalie offers actionable steps to overcome negative spiral thinking and the importance of self-care, all while maintaining authenticity and self-confidence.
Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this episode is packed with wisdom on achieving clarity and direction in your career and personal life. It's a must-listen for anyone looking to unlock their full potential.
https://www.natalieserebrennik.com/
Welcome to the Real you Podcast. I'm your host, david Young, and this is episode number nine. This podcast discusses tapping into your potential and finding ways to be the truest version of yourself. Today, I'm joined by Natalie Sarah Brennick, a certified career coach, former banker, as well as a mom and wife. We will discuss her career journey, coaching and working in corporations, how she uses LinkedIn and how she makes time to manage everything and also take care of herself. Natalie, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your schedule to join me today.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here and I love that. We not too long ago met David and I feel like it was an instant connection. We vibed a lot very easily. So I'm so happy to be here and just get real with you. Yeah, I mean it. I'm so happy to be here and just get real with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it. No, I love it. And yeah, our connection definitely is one of the more recent ones and you write a lot of great content around helping people think about their careers differently, whether it's trying to get a promotion or maybe find a different job or just trying to deal with the. That kind of is the norm in our society, which is something I really struggled with. So I relate and resonate with a lot of your content because I can see myself in it.
Speaker 1:You know, when I was in those roles and feeling like all the frustration and just lack of capability and just I had no idea what I was doing or wanted to do, so your content just really spoke to me kind of right from the beginning, and so I'm really happy to talk to you and then about that, because I think we share some common ideas around that. So, just at the beginning, if you want to just talk, I know you worked at BMO, the bank, for most of the first part of your career Just walk through that, what you did and, um, just kind of kind of high level overview of that experience yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:Actually, bimo was my only. It was like the one that I stayed for my whole career. I had a few co-op placements when I was in university uh, like four month internships, but outside of that, my my first full time was BMO and I ended off my career with BMO. So what I did was, within that like just shy of 17 years being at the bank, what I did was I may have been in the same company but I sat in different seats every couple of years. So about three, four years I'd make a transition to something else. So I kind of see it as different experiences within the same umbrella.
Speaker 2:So my decision to go into that field because it's, as you can imagine, very male dominated. So I worked in the capital markets stream of things. So outside of a few years in equity research of things. So outside of a few years in equity research, all of it was in on the trading floor. So very male dominated, very fast paced. Actually, the fast paced nature of it is what attracted me most to it. The competitive nature, the you know, the high salary, not going to lie like I was very money hungry coming out of university.
Speaker 2:I grew up with immigrant parents so we didn't have this luxurious lifestyle. It's something that my parents really worked hard to build from the ground up when they moved to Canada, and I understood those lessons throughout my childhood. So that was very important for me to gain that stability as quickly as possible, and in my head I'm thinking okay, a career in finance is going to help me do that quicker. So I got in and you know what, for a very long time. It was amazing. I loved it the ability of being able to try new things, speak to other people, the dynamic nature of it, and then you know you try different things and I think, similar to you, getting to other people, the dynamic nature of it, and then you know you try different things and I think, similar to you, getting to know you.
Speaker 2:I found the most challenging part of it is I didn't feel like I had a home, like I didn't feel like it was a genuine place, like this is where I belong, in this seat. This is it for me. I always felt that there was a gaping hole of what my potential could be, and I wasn't it. The work that I wasn't doing, that I was doing wasn't meeting that potential of what I quote unquote should be doing, and I never really knew what the should meant, but I just knew that it wasn't that. So that's what really encouraged my, my action into like finding different spots, and um, lo and behold, I spent 17 years doing that and about a year ago I transitioned to to this beautiful business of coaching, consulting and really just helping those professionals figure out what that home for themselves looked like.
Speaker 2:Right, and not just that. I'm sure you can attest to this, and I appreciate when you say that my content resonates with you, because we are not alone in this. I don't know where I fit in. I don't know how to get more out of my career. I don't know what that next step is. I don't know. I don't know, and it's so hard because this level of genuine mentorship is not easy to find in our career paths and there's no such thing as a rule book when it comes to this stuff. Mind you, I've always wanted to write one, but it's just one of those things that you kind of learn through osmosis and through the mistakes that you make and all of those up and down moments, and then you're like, oh okay, that makes sense, I have to position myself this way. So a big part of me transitioning to this phase of my career is really just being able to help others figure this part out with support and with quicker results.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, so I was the same way. You got there a little faster than I did, so you win. I just I got in places where I had no idea how I ended up there, other than I just was there and I had to do it right, because you get older and you get married, you have kids. I can't just quit, I can't take a sabbatical, I can't take a year to travel the world. I have to do this.
Speaker 1:And then the longer I stayed stuck and I did different jobs and I got a second degree, so I was doing things, but that overwhelming feeling of being stuck and unfulfilled was always there. The longer that it went then the harder it was to get out, because I was like, oh, I'm capable of so much more, but yet I'm on this very small path. I'm playing very small. I don't like it. I was good at some of the jobs. I was okay at some. I was bad at a couple. Whatever, that didn't really change. But what do I do? And I hired multiple career coaches. I was seeing therapists. It is helpful, but nobody's going to give you the answer. It's not like you said, it's not prescriptive, like, oh well, you do this, this and this. You should do this job or whatever. There's so much more to it. And then the older I got, the harder it got. So I love that. We kind of share that overwhelming feeling of like this is just not enough. I just can do more. I don't know what that is, but I know that it's not this.
Speaker 1:So talk a little bit about the money, because so my first job was selling pharmaceuticals for Roche. I did it for about five years and I was single and I had very little overhead. So I had quite a bit of money, at least comparatively at the time, and so I felt like I had money, but I was miserable. That was my real lesson, because I was like you as a kid I thought the more money you had, the happier you were because you don't have to worry about it, and I proved that to myself. That wasn't true. So talk about a little. I'm curious to get your take on like kind of growing up and wanting to have like money as a status, like if I make money, that's successful, if I have more money, that's like a that's good, and then you kind of realized that that while it is good, but it ultimately doesn't provide you with that like internal satisfaction. I'm just curious to get your take on when you realize, hey, I'm successful by society standards and I'm making good money, but I still have this gaping hole.
Speaker 2:Right, great question. I might have a controversial opinion that you may or may not agree with. So it's funny my my relationship with money and success. So if you define my definition of success was how much money I made for a very, very long time, for all the reasons that we just talked about, I still view, like in my definition of success, money's still part of that equation, but it's for a different reason now. Before it was about being able to compete and prove to others and myself that I can do it. Now it's about living a comfortable lifestyle where I don't have to actually worry about are we going to be able to afford this or that. You know, are we going to be able to afford this or that?
Speaker 2:Given the career path that I'm coming off of, I grew accustomed to a certain lifestyle and I grew comfortable within that lifestyle. I'm not an overspender by any means and I understand you know the art of saving and the importance of it. I started my RRSP fund like the equivalent to a 401, like my first job, like I was very disciplined with okay saving for the future. I'm not a risk taker when it comes to this stuff, but money still is part of a comfort to me and I think always will be. Do I need to make as much as I did before? No, there's other ways that you know we can. We like very much can live a very comfortable lifestyle. There's other ways that you know we can we like very much can live a very comfortable lifestyle.
Speaker 2:But it's still part of the equation and because it is part of that equation, I'll always look at every step of my career going forward from here as an opportunity to continue loading my, motivating myself and driving my action forward to achieve more. And it's not for the status, it's because I know that I can and I actually really want to get like, keep growing and doing good. So the difference between now is the impact that I'm making. Like you can legit be changing people's lives with the work that you do. If you really get on with a coach, it could be life changing experience and that's what I hope that for all of my clients to experience when they work with me. That right there it's. That is fulfillment, that is success. That is what used to, that's what the money used to give me and now I get. Get it from the transformations and from the experience exchanged with my clients.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's. I love that because it's even if you're making the exact same amount of money, the money you're making now is totally different because a it's your business, like your coaching business, so it's something you created. And then the impact, like you said, that you're having with others. So you're getting the money, but that's just a part of it. The bigger part is, like you said, someone could come to you in a really dark place, burnout, frustrated, depressed, whatever go through your program. Come out on the other side.
Speaker 1:First of all, realize there's hope, there is a way out. Identifying strengths, whatever you work with them to do, to figure out, like okay, these are other paths, these are other options, and then watch them kind of go down. That I think is really amazing, right, like just to see, like where they start with you and then kind of where they end up, or even the the steps to get there. Um and I think that's under, I think that's understated um in in, like coaching and therapy, is that there's hard, you can't really measure like that impact, right, there's no, it's hard to put a value on on that and it feels good. So if you can make money and help people at the same time. It's completely different than making money just to help the corporation, right, right, it's more personal and it just feels better.
Speaker 2:It feels a heck of a lot better. David, there's no comparison. It's like zero to 100. If you're looking at the scale difference, you're not exactly saving lives on the trading floor. I'll tell you that much. You're just getting the big man richer and that's it. And I was okay with it. It's fine. It was fine for, but until it just wasn't enough. It just wasn't enough for me.
Speaker 2:I knew that I needed to spend and bet on myself the next chapter of my career, for how long it was going to be, to take this risk to do something. I was 1000% passionate and knew that this is a meaningful career path for me. So the risk was figuring out how to do it. I've never been an entrepreneur before right, I've never had to go out on my own. I knew how to. I mastered the game of like playing the game, the corporate game. I knew how to do that and see success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure that there was a bunch of ups and downs to create that experience, but I ended off my career at the bank as happy as I could be, like I was making the most money I ever had. I was really happy with my title. I was working in a great group, supportive. I was just unfulfilled.
Speaker 2:So I traded in a pretty good situation that a lot of people would actually be like are you crazy? Like why would you? You know you were. It just felt like it was just meh I wanted to do. I just had this calling and I knew deep down inside I would regret not trying and that, to me, living with regret, was something I wasn't willing to do. No one is ever going to take away the 17 years of experience on my resume, the relationships that I've had and the experience that I built. No one and I can in any interview. If I choose to return back to the bank in some capacity or a version of that, this will be part of my story and this will make me more marketable because I went for something of my story.
Speaker 1:And this will make me more marketable because I went for something, entrepreneur, and, and and led with passion. 100 um, that's what I tell my wife. I was like this if this whole thing fails and I cannot make this work, I don't think there's going to be if I have to sit in an interview again and say, yep, I tried to build my own business for a year, year and a half, two years, whatever it is, and I just, for whatever reason, couldn't make it work. Like if they're sitting there being like, oh, like, yeah, that's, that doesn't relate to us. I don't want to work there anyway. So, like, it just adds. It adds to the story in ways that, frankly, you can't get this experience anywhere else. Like, unless you do it, you can.
Speaker 1:I have an MBA, it's. I learned more. I've learned more in the last six to nine months of doing this on my own than I ever did. You know, sitting in those classes, when did you start thinking, uh, coaching might be like your kind of outlet. And then what steps did you take to try to like, explore that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So it's interesting when I look at my, my evolution at the bank. You know, I I was happy and then I was motivated and then I was, you know, dealt with all my imposter syndrome, anxiety of like doing the job, and then I had I had some babies too to the realization of career stagnation and how my career was limited or how it created a gap in where I thought I should be compared to some other relative people. So that urge in me to right the wrongs that had been done to me and I realized how wrong my approach was, so that fueled my passion. Oh, I'm going to fight. Natalie's showing up and I'm fighting and I'm going to get my money and I'm going to get this. And it fueled the next chapter of that career for me.
Speaker 2:And when I saw success from that and I made more money and I was able to do that, as soon as I succeeded, all I wanted to do, I had this urge just to help others. So I threw myself into mentorship. For years I was mentoring it at any given time. I was mentoring like over probably a dozen people, like 10 to 12 people in different capacities, whether it was in a group setting or whether it was one on one, formal, informal I just just loved it. It was.
Speaker 2:I always said it was the part of the job that I never got paid for, but I love doing right and it that that to me, it was my outlet to be able to share all of my lessons learned and give that needed advice. That again, there's no rule book, no one's telling you this, no one's pulling you to the side unless it at least it wasn't my experience being like, hey, nat, this is how you land your next promotion, these are the things that you should be doing, and if I could be able to do that for other people and help them, that was so meaningful for me. So that's what I did, and I did that for a few years, um more consistently with the mentorship. And then I was catching up with one of my mentees and this was just in COVID, like COVID had just started a few months ago, and it was a statement that just really shook my core. I don't think you realize how much you changed my career trajectory.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh my gosh, that's it home. At that point I was doing it because it felt good mentorship. But now the aha moment oh my God, I'm actually changing these people's lives. This is powerful. That same night I turned to my husband. I'm like, if I can figure out this, if I could figure out a way to make money doing this, helping others figure out their career, shit like this is what I want to do. And so he's like figure it out no joke, david.
Speaker 2:The next day I'm googling how do you make money mentoring? So you don't make money mentoring, but then coaching comes into play like what's coaching all about? I was completely like I did not have any experience or knowledge around it, like I knew what it was, but I just associated coaching to c-level suite and like execs not for the average day-to-day person looking to get more out of their career for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you had to come. You had to come swimming down in my waters and just be super unhappy. So you already had like three career coaches. So you were, you were, you were doing jobs that you liked and were good at.
Speaker 2:So you didn't, you didn't have an, you didn't have a need to go there I mean, I, you know, I, I'd like to think I was really good at it. Was I fully happy? I don, I don't know. You know, was it a version of myself that was like you know, zip it, nat, like you're getting paid well, and just it's part of it. No one's happy. Look around and, let's be honest, most people sitting in corporate probably are not that happy. No, right, but. But do they like the stability and the comfort of that steady paycheck? Yes, absolutely the benefits all of it. You know there's pros and cons to everything in life, so, but anyways, after that moment, I'm just like, okay, like this, is it? So I started talking to people researching. I got certified on the backside, like no one knew at work. This was something I was doing my personal time. That took the better part of a year and then the second, that second year, because it was a two year decision. The second year I was actually test driving it. I'm like, okay, let friends, family, who wants to be coached, like I'm, I'm test driving this and I charged them very little, but I needed an exchange, like I needed a nominal exchange for service and I just every step I took in those two years, I just was fell more and more in love with coaching and and the realization that I can absolutely do this.
Speaker 2:For me, money was a big thing, because money was the reason what got me into banking. And then now I was not naive. I knew that I was going to go from here to all of a sudden not making anything. And was I going to be okay with that? Right? That was a huge, huge hurdle. Do I need to save over the next couple of years now to support me for the next couple of years? Almost like pre-funding my salary, and that helped tremendously and honestly, I hired a coach, right? So I hired a coach to help me with a lot of the mindset stuff, and it was an acceptance that I wasn't going to know everything, and that's okay, and that's why I was going to walk away from banking and then step into this new arena and figure it out, and that's truly what I've been doing for the last year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. It is very difficult. Like you said, the companies get it right with the every other week paycheck and the benefits and even though it's a false security because they can let you go at any time I think we've really seen that in the last couple of years. When you see really, really big corporations like Nike and Google and Facebook and Salesforce, and when they're laying people off and they're profiting billions every year, then if they can do it, almost any company can do it. But again, I think most people are like well, I know that that's happening, but the odds that it's going to happen to me are probably pretty small, so I'm going to stay. So I get it. There is the allure of safety, but it is definitely false and I think it's more tenuous, I think, than a lot of people care to admit.
Speaker 1:So your path and your plan was so well thought out, like giving yourself, almost like the two-year. It was almost like you were building a runway of practice, money saving and investing, like you said, like prepaying yourself, hiring a coach. So I really admire the way that it was very thoughtful and intentional and I don't think a lot of people would have done it with that much foresight. I know I didn't and I'm a planner and a thinker and I didn't do it. So good on you that you did it, because I think that just eases, it, makes it easier, because it's very difficult. As we were discussing before we started, recording like doing your own thing, presents like a whole world of challenges that are very difficult to know until you get in it. But the way that you set it up by taking a little slower approach, I think just I think it helped, just like your psyche, like once you started doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I knew that this was not going to be a Friday decision and I'm starting this thing on Monday. Like I knew, I needed to give myself the time to get super comfortable and I'm not about to do anything that's going to jeopardize my status and what I've been able to build up at the bank on a whim. If I'm leaving, I'm leaving because I'm 1000% sure that this is exactly the next step that I want to explore and in order to get to that confidence, I needed to build those steps. And that's the thing. Truthfully, for a long time in my career, I knew that this isn't it, but I didn't have the courage to take that next step until I knew exactly what it was To not have that clarity piece.
Speaker 2:The uncertainty is it's it's honestly, it's paralyzing and it's what kept me there for so long, and I made the most of it. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I just sat there like a miserable mule, just clocking in and out of each day Like I. I made the most of every experience there, to the point where people were absolutely shocked when they heard my news. They're like what are you talking about? What you're doing? What to this? And you know some even my closest friends. They're like you're insane, like I support you and you'll do whatever you want, but holy shit You've lost.
Speaker 1:You've lost your mind, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Because I cause I built it up and that's the thing, david, like I went through so much, you know, turbulence along the way that when I was leaving I was actually leaving a pretty good situation. I just wasn't fulfilled and kind of bored. So it was tough. It was. But for me you know I just turned 40 last year the realization of spending the next 20 years of my life knowing that I was unfulfilled and I knew at that point there wasn't any other role that I would want to explore in that company that you know, know that was going to be a real, that 20 years was going to be a slow 20 years and I was here to do that well, and I think when you get older uh, at least for me you gain more perspective and uh, like, as I've gotten, you know, I I turned 49 this summer and so you start thinking, like you know, know, average life expectancy is 78.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm way past the halfway point and if I only have 30 years left, well then I better start making something happen, like now, because, like you know, we don't have forever, whereas when you're like 25, like 78 is so far away you can't even register it, it doesn't even mean anything. So it is interesting how your perspective shifts. How do you? What is your process? Did you develop a process in how you work with people? So is it very consistent or do you tailor it based on their needs? I'd like to learn more. Just like how you someone comes into your ecosystem, they're looking for help, like how do you, like kind of, go about the process?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So right now I work with my clients one-on-one. I am actually a goal of mine for this year is to pilot a group experience that has more of a hybrid. So I'm working on that behind the scenes. But right now I work with my clients one on one and it's, generally speaking, a three month experience and it's it's customized in nature.
Speaker 2:It has a framework to keep us like on track, but I will always meet where my client needs me most, right? So, depending on where they are in their journey whether they're looking for another job or they're happy with where they're at and they're just looking for support in figuring out how to plan the next few years and go after that promotion and those next milestones, or they're a little bit more senior in their lane and they're figuring out how to become the best leader they possibly can for this new opportunity they were just given so different walks of life, but it all what I like to say is it it's all under the umbrella of, you know, achieving more growth, confident growth in your career. And I am a huge. That should probably be like my catch line. I'm a huge self-advocate fan.
Speaker 2:Like this is the bread and butter of my belief system. It's exactly what created the success of my career, because I started developing this strategy for myself, which turned into a lifelong practice. So I absolutely and if you think about self-advocacy, there's so many different elements of it it's how you communicate right, your confidence building, how you how you like talk about yourself with other people in a formal, informal capacity. How do you build your relationships right? It's all of these, the feedback loop to it's really that what I like. It's as simple as taking taking control over your career, as opposed to relying on someone else, like your manager, to to advance you because you're doing good work.
Speaker 2:It's, it's about changing that psyche, which was a very painful realization for me. For years I didn't realize what that meant. I just thought that, to be a good employee, you show up, you do good work, You're not too squeaky, You're not causing the drama, You're just showing up with the right attitude and your good performance is going to get you to that next level. And that is just not how it works.
Speaker 1:Performance is going to get you to that next level, and that is just not how it works. Yeah, it is. And then you had a recent post in the last couple of weeks where you were I don't remember the exact details, but you worked with somebody on getting a pretty significant raise, and I think she had struggled in the past.
Speaker 1:And then I think the self-advocacy part was a big, a big part of what you worked with her on. And then you put, you put like a plan in place if I remember the post correctly pretty specific plan of things for her to do and then kind of position it and then she was able to secure the promotion so and I love that because like how rewarding of someone who's doing good work and then to get paid more closer in line with what they're worth is is is amazing.
Speaker 2:And that's it. And you know a big part of our work together, and I always start off our programs the exact same way, like with the framework, like the mindset piece. If you do not believe that you can succeed that milestone, if you just don't believe it yourself, no matter what we do in our sessions, we'll get you to the place. You're just faking it along the way. It has to start with the mindset. You have to start believing that you can and that you will, and you have to bring awareness to those, because it happens to all of us, even us coaches. It happens to all of us, even us coaches. It happens to all of us.
Speaker 2:That negative spiral thinking, especially when you're faced with something like an opportunity to step outside of your comfort zone, we immediately we're like oh no, we can't do this. Oh no, we're not good enough. Oh no, we shouldn't. Blah, blah, blah, we don't. And constantly, yeah, it's like imagine, just pausing, acknowledging, validating your own. Okay, I'm feeling all of these like thought, like, you know, motions, and I'm thinking all of these things because I'm, you know, I'm scared and I'm scared of what's going to happen if I do go, which is totally fair. So how can I control the situation from here. What's another way of thinking about it and what do I need to do to get comfortable with taking that step?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think for me, as I've gotten older, you realize that it's worse to not try than it is to try and screw it up or have it not go the way you want, Because for so long that was the way I dealt with. The fear is I just wouldn't do it, because then the fear just goes away right, Like oh well if I'm not even going to try it, then what's there to be afraid of?
Speaker 1:Which is great? Temporarily you get the relief, but there's no growth at all. You just will stay in the same spot and if you keep doing that, you'll literally stay there forever. So it's, you're right there. The fear never goes away, and especially as we kind of continue to grow, cause you get to different levels and it expands in whatever way that looks. So there's always going to be, no matter what level you get to right, there's always some level of doubt or fear and you just you just start to learn to embrace it and be like I'm just, I'm going to step through it, I'm going to, I'm just going to go for it.
Speaker 1:A quick point on the self-advocacy. I'm glad you brought that up. So my wife and I talk about this a lot. So she's a high school teacher and one of the things she's noticed and she's been doing that for a long time is as we move to this much more advanced technology and so much texting and all the digital ways we communicate, right, and we've lost, especially the kids that have grown up in this and that's kind of all they've known Like. She just has really seen this very stark difference in like 10, 15 years ago versus now, of kids who really struggle to advocate for themselves.
Speaker 1:And something as simple as you know say they do a paper and they get, we'll just say, like an 81, but they think it should have been 90, whatever. Um, they have a hard time just going to the teacher and just saying, hey, I worked really hard on this paper, I felt like the grade should be a little bit higher. Like can we just kind of talk how, like, how did you arrive at the 81? Or whatever. What they do is they go to their parents and they say I got 81 on this paper. I think it's crap, I think I did really well on it, I think I deserve a higher grade. And their parents email and they say, hey, you know, and then it starts this process and they eventually get it worked out.
Speaker 1:But the student is not learning the lesson of communicating in person, with words, not on a screen, not on their phone, and it's such a no matter how far we get like technology wise, like you said, like relationships, friends, partners, work bosses, coworkers, whatever, like there's. There's so many instances where you have to be able to have a back and forth conversation and sometimes that involves like taking your stance, making the point for you. I deserve this because and you have to talk about it and there's a back and forth. And so she's really worried that this, whatever current, I don't know what number, I don't know what letter, I don't know what we're on. I know I'm X, that's all I know.
Speaker 1:Whatever it is, she's just really worried that we're turning out, we're going to turn out like this whole generation of kids. They just really worried that we're turning out, we're going to turn out like this whole generation of kids. They're going to be, you know, 23, 24 years old, they're going to be getting out of school, they'll be entering the workforce and they've never learned how to have like adult back and forth conversations, which is just it's scary and fascinating. So I love that, that is, that you're aware of that, cognizant of it, and then use that as a big part of what you're teaching people to do, because I think it's really important that you learn that self-advocacy skill. I think it's kind of a lost art, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think I could love your example with this student more. And it just instantly brought me back to my daughter's 10 and I am going through and figuring out okay, how, how do I take all of this wisdom over the years and teach her like to confidently speak about it? So she got a test back the other day and you know she, she was disappointed with the mark and she, she thought she deserved a higher grade in certain sections. She thought it was unfair that she didn't get certain marks for certain things. I'm like OK, my first question did you have a conversation with your teacher? Oh, no, no, no. And immediately her thought space is, oh, he doesn't have time, or he, you know he won't want me to. Space is, oh, he doesn't have time, or he, you know he won't want me to. And I'm like okay, I appreciate all of the excuses that you're creating for not having this conversation. I see, you know, cause that's what it is. It's, I'm acknowledging it.
Speaker 2:Imagine having a conversation with me right now and I'm the teacher. What would you want to say? And sometimes just as simple as like that dialogue of just going through the motions, of having the conversation. You know the prep. And then she, we had the conversation she did beautifully. I'm like, how comfortable do you feel going tomorrow and having that conversation with your teacher? And she's like, yeah, I think you can do that. I I'm like, okay, so let's do that and let's talk about it after. And so it's like this conversation is dialogue that continues over time, but having her build up that confidence that she could and she has every right to have that conversation.
Speaker 2:And that's the problem. I think, as a student or as an employee, there's some type of conditioning that's happening in the background. Don't be a problem, Sit there with a smile on your face, say thank you and that's it. That old school mentality is what we need to really break through, and it's not about being combative or like being difficult in a conversation by challenging. It's about oh, I believe I deserve to get higher marks on this because A, B and C. I'd love to understand your thought process in giving me this grade. Obviously, it's a little bit more of advanced conversation than a 10-year-old, but that's essentially what would be happening, right? Same thing about the promotion. Same thing about asking for a raise and not getting as much as you wanted. Same thing with anything that you want and the outcome is slightly lower. You don't need to just accept it for what it is. Continue a conversation. Okay, what could I be doing from now until next year to ensure that I get what it is that I'm after?
Speaker 1:right, yeah, no, I love that and so many good points there. A, you're right, we aren't conditioned in the current setup to speak out and there's a way to do it right. You're not obviously being being obnoxious about it or a jerk about it. You're diplomatically stating again, just like a civil, back and forth. I also love the idea of having her practice with you. I hadn't thought of that. I think that's a great idea, just to build confidence and you get used to saying the words out loud.
Speaker 1:There's a book it reminded me of a book called the Gift of Failure, and I can't think of the author's name off the top of my head but it's a brilliant read, especially if you have young kids or school age kids, because the whole point of the book is that we're creating a society where we don't let our kids fail. We're always trying to protect them. Um, if they forget their iPad at school, we bring it to them. If they forget their test that they were supposed to submit on the table, we raced it to school. We don't want them to lose any games. It's this protect, protect, protect which is terrible, because life's full of disappointment. It's full of ups and downs. There's loss, there's grief, there's breakups, whatever. There's lots of things that are going to happen as you go through life and it isn't all fun and games and there's going to be disappointment and you have to learn how to deal with that. You have to learn to live with that disappointment failure, losses, didn't get the promotion, didn't get the job, whatever. And if you go through your whole life up until you're a young adult and you don't really have practice with that and then that happens, you can't deal with it right. It's overwhelming. Whereas if along the way, you get used to like oh yeah, okay, sometimes I'm going to lose or oh, I thought I did pretty well on the test, but I got to see, okay, like you, just it starts to get used to it. So the book is really good and it really just talks a lot about.
Speaker 1:She tells a story about like her son forgot something and she just refused to take it to him and it was like devastating to him. He was like but you can bring it. She was like, oh, I can bring it, but it was your responsibility to prepare the night before or get up earlier or whatever. It is Like you knew how important that was and you left it on the table Like it's not my job to do that.
Speaker 1:So I think it's just that same mindset of just speaking for yourself and standing up for yourself and then just learning that you could have that conversation. And then the teacher still was like nope, this is why you got it and that's totally fine. I mean, they're the teacher, it's their prerogative. You stated your case, you've had it back and forth, and then you move on. So I think it's just a great. I love that you're doing that. It's a great life lesson for your daughter and moving forward. And you've talked a little bit about overcoming fear, or we talked about how fear kind of plays a role. What are some techniques or mindset stuff that you do Say somebody comes to you and they're just really stuck in their own head. How do you work that out with them? Or how do you start to have them develop a little bit more confidence to take that chance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question. So, first of all, I uncover the why up like a little bit more confidence to take that chance. Yeah, it's a great question. So I, first of all, I uncover the why behind the fear. Right, and what's the true reason? And usually the first answer is never the right reason.
Speaker 2:So we spent some time really building that self awareness piece of what's getting in the way. Is it that story that you grew up believing? Is it like a limiting belief that you know you grew up in the household hearing what is it? Is it assumption-based thinking? It's your own internal fear. You're just not good enough because of, like something that you're holding onto from the past Because, let's be honest, that's usually what it is for all of us and the more clear you are and vulnerable you are with the why behind the thought of, or the fear itself that's stopping you from going after what you truly want, that's when you can start to really uncover the truth behind it and that's when the reframing really takes shape in being able to be like okay, well, this is one way of thinking about it. What's a more positive way and a more forward moving approach that you can think about?
Speaker 2:So, clients in general and people in general. It's so easy for us to come with the glass half empty approach and be able to sit there and justify for hours as to why, right. But it's so much harder to be more optimistic and think about what if I, what if the best case scenario happens right? And being able to work through that with, with an objective party, like a coach, is so. It's so helpful. Helpful for a lot of people that are stuck and knowing that what they're doing, their approach, isn't working. And then having the confidence to be able to share with someone else just the act honestly sometimes, the act of just sharing and appreciating their own thoughts being spoken out loud. Sometimes my clients are like, oh my gosh, all I needed to do was just say this out loud and just have and go through that process, right?
Speaker 2:So the reframing? Absolutely it's. It's how's another way of looking at that? Where's the proof behind that? It's always trying to look, create that flip side of that same situation and all the amazing things that can happen if you do try, and then establishing I'm all about the forward moving action.
Speaker 2:So let's take steps as we're going through this mindset shift right. What's one thing you can commit to today that you're going to do tomorrow to move you along, and then reflect on it what worked, what didn't, and then what's one slightly bigger step that you can take the next day. And it's all about this compounding effect, because if you're continuously moving in that direction and it's in this at a speed that's meaningful for you and to no one else's like agenda or plan, then before you know it, you know after a month of doing that, the progress itself is just amazing. It is truly amazing to be able to reflect back on right Everything that you've grown and all of the different stories that you've unraveled and reframed for yourself. And then, all of a sudden, you believe a little bit more. Like I was saying at the beginning mindset if you don't believe that you can, you never will.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden, when you get to this point and in this intentional practice of doing this for yourself while still taking steps forward with other elements to achieve your goal faster, all of a sudden you start to create that inner belief for yourself, that self-belief that, oh, maybe I actually can.
Speaker 2:And look, I've been taking these small steps and these are the ones that I'm seeing and acknowledging that and being able to reflect on what's working, what's not, how do we? And redefining failure. We're so hard on ourselves I know I admit that's why I have a coach, david I'm so hard on myself and my clients are the same. We're so hard on myself and my clients are the same. We're so hard on ourselves. And it's about reframing that failure as like okay, so now I know what not to do in this situation. What next thing can I try to help me? Because it's not about the one and done. It's about okay, you have a goal. How quickly can we get there? Okay, the quicker you go through these motions and you realize what doesn't work, the sooner you can try something else that may work.
Speaker 1:Well, I like the small steps to try to lead to the bigger wins. We talk about it on LinkedIn a lot, because I see a fair amount of content where people are scared to post. They don't want to put their own thoughts out there, afraid of what co-workers might say friends, family which I totally get and so one of the things you'll see is like a small step is like well, just start to comment, just do like five comments a day and it doesn't have to be a paragraph or two paragraphs, just something just to show, kind of prove, that you can do it and then maybe go to 10 comments and then 15 and then maybe do one post a week or whatever. So you start to build that and I think that's a great, especially for somebody that's really stuck in their head or really lacking confidence is doing those smaller stacking steps that you start to build on and then you can use those to kind of climb up. So I think that's a great idea. I also think it's really interesting that you talk about having a coach. I have a coach currently. I even considered adding a second coach, and I think there's just something really valuable.
Speaker 1:We get stuck in our heads and then we have all these ideas, but we need that third party, that independent third party, non-emotional, not tied to the outcome, that can take them, rethink them and then give them back to us. And then sometimes you're like, oh yeah, that's actually not a very good idea. Um, I see that now I couldn't see that. Or like I don't think that's a great idea. And then they hear it a totally different way and be like, actually, I think that's, I think you're actually onto something there, and then they give you like their the way.
Speaker 1:They kind of extrapolate it in a way that that you have a coach and I just think it's really important, kind of no matter what you're doing, to I mean, think about like professional athletes, right, like they have multiple coaches throughout, like their entire careers. I don't know why it's any different when you're not necessarily on a field, on a playing field, like when you're doing stuff like we just all need help in various ways, in various ways, right. Um, so I love that and I just loved, like your approach. Um, what's kind of your obviously it's new, you'll be doing it for about a year, kind of. Where do you and I know you're working on the hybrid kind of one-to-many or one-to-group aspect, like where would you love to see like your coaching practice, like evolve, and like where would you like to see it go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I absolutely see myself creating like change went from within. So like at the corporate level, if I could be in some capacity hired on to help their, their talent, stay within doors right and and turn them from like a flight risk into no, I'm staying and I'm actually really motivated. There's so many opportunities to do good um and provide those resources for the employees to feel like they're validated, appreciated, and a lot of these types of services where you go in and you work and you get access to this level type of coaching. The results are incredible and there are companies that are investing. There's some old school companies no, that's only for the C-suite, but those are likely not the companies that I'll be targeting right. So it's about really doing good, good change on the inside for companies that believe in their talent and want to keep them happy and indoors, increasing leadership.
Speaker 2:What does a good leader look like and how can you implement more of those practices? How do you treat your employees? How do you actually value your employees the way that they hope to be desired? What does that actually mean? And it's not necessarily just paying them more money or promoting them. How are you communicating Right? There's so many different elements. I would love to be able to be inside the trenches and fix whatever's broken so that everyone in there is happier. And the happier the people, the better the company performs. It's a fact. I don't have a statistic off the top of my head but, there's no shortage of stats that support that thing.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's totally, completely valid and, like we touched on earlier, the promotions and the money will only get you so far, but if you're still feeling unhappy or drained or overworked or stressed or whatever, that title and money will only get you so far, and then at some point they're either going to burn out and quit or they're going to go somewhere else just for a change of pace. So I think that's really interesting. That's a really interesting idea as to a way to take your practice and expand it in helping people in companies. I think it's really needed.
Speaker 1:Talking about leadership training, I think emotional intelligence is something that should be taught. Frankly, it should be taught when we're kids and then all the way through. But specifically with corporations and leaders, I almost think it should be monthly training, because it's so vital to like every aspect, and you know I've had a share of managers that could have really benefited from just like an overload of EQ training. So I hope at some point that becomes more standard and I think that would really help the employee experience, because managers have such a huge impact on a role, right Like a good manager can make a pretty ho-hum job pretty good, and a bad manager can take the best job in the world and make it absolutely a nightmare, and so I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:So I hope companies get smarter when it comes to that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just like talking about the experience that I had at the bank, Generally speaking, you don't get into that manager seat managing a team because you're a good leader and you're a good manager.
Speaker 2:You tend to get into that seat because you're a good performer and you've done really well as an individual contributor an individual contributor and now they want to elevate you to now lead other people. But it's a completely different skill set and also, it's not all their fault. They're not. They're not supported with the proper training to help them become, because they're still have their responsibilities and now they have to manage a whole team. So it's about putting a process in place to help them become the best leaders that they possibly can. It's giving them a chance and that's what I would love to do, because I couldn't agree more. I feel like a lot of really I've seen it time and time again a lot of amazing young talent leaving because they just hate their manager like happens all the time yeah, it's probably the, probably the number one reason I think people leave, especially leave good situations.
Speaker 1:Um, I think just having a bad, poor manager or poor relationship with the manager just becomes untenable, makes your life just totally miserable. Um, so I know, I think it's, I'm hoping post-covid, um, you know, more remote work, more flexibility. Um, I'm hoping companies get more on board with understanding the dynamic, um of just making it a better experience. And you're spot on with the they promote the wrong people we've I've been talking about this recently. You can use sports or sales are my two best examples. But, like, typically the best players, like are not the best coaches. And if you look at kind of any sport, at the best coaches like they were rarely the best player. They either didn't play professionally or they were just like a marginal professional player, because it's a completely different, totally different skill set. And the same thing with sales, right, the best salesperson is rarely going to be the best sales manager, because what it takes to be a great salesperson is completely different than what it takes to be a great sales manager. So I understand why companies do it. It makes sense because you're like, well, if you're a great seller, you can teach all these other people how to sell. It doesn't work that way. Sure, you can make them better, you can give them tips, phrasing, techniques, but they aren't you the reason you're a great seller.
Speaker 1:There's so many factors, right, it's personality, it's presence, it's energy. There's all these things that you cannot. Someone cannot go as you and do a sales call. They can't. They're themselves, and so it's a little bit backwards, but I get it. It's a great point you made, too about the lack of training. You promote someone, you put them in charge of 15 people and then you just kind of leave them, and if they haven't had training on their own, well, how do they know what to do? They don't, and then you're just setting them up for failure, which then sets up those 15 people for failure, and then it's a trickle down effect, and then that's why we have all the problems. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a common issue for a reason right, and I do think that there's an element of the executive team being very real with what's important to them, and I understand revenue is a big part of it. You can't have a business if the money's not coming in, but it's sometimes the approach that they take is all about just squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, do more with less and produce more revenue, but it's at what expense? So I refuse to believe that there's no hybrid solution where you can make money while still empowering your team and your people at the same time, like if you just have to set the right intention and no matter how you slice it, if that vision isn't accepted and valued by the top of the house, it ain't trickling down to that middle line manager in charge of five people. It's got to start at the top and make its way down.
Speaker 2:It's the only way that this stuff works.
Speaker 1:For sure. This has all been great. As we get ready to finish up here, just a couple more topics I want to talk to you about. The first is how this is something my wife has struggled with, you know, as a mom and a wife, and then she works really hard teaching and then trying to keep up with friends and then take care of herself, right. So she's a giver and she typically puts herself kind of last, and this year she hired a coach and she's really trying to prioritize herself more, because if you take better care of yourself, then you're able to give in all those other areas, right. So I'm just curious to get kind of your take on that and how you like with, with all that you're doing, uh, and all that's on your plate kind of every day, like how do you also, you know, take care of Natalie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question because there was a version of that answer when I was in corporate and then there's a version now where I'm like starting this business, like I'm in this, in this business and I've because I came from a place where I made good money I was always able to invest in support that I needed for my family. So there was times, david, that my husband and I were leaving to go to our jobs because he was building up his career at the same time as me and we were out the door before before, like with my daughter especially. She was even awake, so we needed that support. So we and and unfortunately we weren't able to rely on our parents for that support, so we had to hire a nanny to help us. So we're always thinking about ways what kind of support can we afford for our family to make our day-to-day life a little bit easier, right?
Speaker 2:So I have friends that you know we no longer have a nanny. We have support, but, you know, cleaning lady, or something to just a little bit, maybe once in a while with some help with in the kitchen, so I don't have to worry that. Or also just be okay that we're having eggs for dinner right Like and changing that mindset a bit, but it's really trying to make the most of the time that we do have together and it's intentional. So we like eat dinner together and making the most of the moments we do have and just not judge the moments that we're not, we don't have Right, cause that's such a big part of it. You know, as as moms and I'm sure dads feel this too but we're constantly faced with that mom guilt. I talk about this all the time and as much as I say I don't do mom guilt, I still get sucked into it by intentionally. I just don't want to you know there's enough.
Speaker 2:I'm just trying to do that my damn best right and like not try to screw them up as much as possible. Truthfully, out of everything I've done in my career, being being a parent is the hardest job you'll ever have, right, and it's just about being there, being present, being encouraging, being all those things, but also having them know that, like mommy also works and daddy also works and you have to have independence on your for yourself, but then when we have time at dinner or maybe like watch a movie together on the weekend, we really truly enjoy those moments. The self care piece is something I'm still trying to do better at Because I'm so passionate about building this business. I feel like that's a part based off of where I was in corporate. It was a little bit easier for me to carve that me time when I was in corporate because when I left the office, that's it, I'm done, it's all just me. But now my business growth is always on my mind.
Speaker 2:So, if anything, that's what I'm trying to reestablish in my life, and a lot of that self care piece is also I. It's twofold. With my networking and building connections with others, I feel better and lighter about myself, which is essentially the feeling you want to get when you invest in your self care. I get a lot of value out of those connections. So it's about being more creative with how you're spending your time so that you're also fulfilled at the end of it. It's not just the massages, the getting the nails done or any of that. It's making the most of the moments.
Speaker 1:I really like that, the being present and, just like you said, just doing the best you can. There's only so much that we can do. Uh, there's a lot, especially with kids, that's going to be out of our hands, right, we can't control what goes on at school. We can't go on control what goes on on their, on their phones or their friends phones, like we can just try to teach them, you know, the best that we can while we have them and then like that's it, like we just like it, like it is not this. We just can't, we just can't control it. Um, and it's hard, especially as, like a control person myself, Um, yeah, I mean my kids are 14 and 10.
Speaker 1:Um, my oldest turns 15 this summer. He'll be a freshman at the high school, uh, which is hard to believe. But, um, like you just, we just, like you said, just do the best you can treat people with respect, try to be kind and lead with empathy. Um, you know, embrace all uh cultures and um, all that stuff, like just to be accepting of everyone and just try to help everyone and try to be a good person and like that's kind of. Like that's kind of it Right. Like you just.
Speaker 2:I mean that's it right, Pretty good, Best case scenario Right, yeah, exactly Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's like you said, it seems small. You're like I'm not doing enough but like that's just kind of all you can do. And then you just, you know you hope for the best. And we were talking a little bit about as we finish up, we we were talking about before we started recording.
Speaker 1:I was giving you a little bit of a background on why I started the podcast and kind of its main kind of theme, and you know it's called the Real you, which is really like trying to wear fewer masks, and I explained a little bit about how I felt. Like I wore a lot of masks as a kid. They've gotten a little bit fewer. You know, as I, where I am now. But just curious to get your perspective as you talked about just turning 40 and just as you get older and really just getting more comfortable like in your own skin and with who you are, what you represent and just where you kind of just stop. It's not that you don't care, but you just kind of stop worrying so much about, like, what other people think and you're do, you're following what you're, what you want to do and trying to do good, uh, in the world, um, and just kind of your, your kind of take on like that, becoming the truest version of yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, such a good question and you know it's so. It's funny to look back because while I was in corporate, as much as I said, I don't care about what other people think or I don't play the comparison game it was a huge lie in your, your example from earlier when you were talking about, you know, starting on posting on linkedin. Oh my gosh, I was so in my head about it because I was so worried about what everyone at the bank was going to think and judge.
Speaker 2:No one cares no one no one actually cares at all. If anything, it was freeing and took a load off my back that it's coming to that realization. People care way less about what you're doing in your life than you think, so don't even give them the benefit of the doubt. And, honestly, that realization, which took me a few months to just like, truly get into it, was so freeing, it helped me so much and I'm like, if I'm going to do this damn thing, I'm doing it my way. I'm showing up 100% real. I'm going to say something controversial, I'm peeling back the layers and you know what? The moment that I did, all of a sudden, like those, those statistics, those analytics, they started increasing because people started connecting more with my message, because they could feel it.
Speaker 2:And that's the thing. It is so easy to spot fakeness. It is so easy and it's as easy as it is for you to you feel like it's so hard right in the moment to expose your true self, but the more confident you are in yourself and that's why coaching is so amazing, because it helps you build up that true self-belief in yourself it's infectious. People just have this newfound opinion of you. You show up in this light and, if anything, they want it for themselves. So it's about really just catching yourself in the moment where you're playing the comparison game. Catching yourself in a moment where you're in your head about something and you're limiting yourself because of whatever fear based thinking or judgment that you're placing on yourself, and then just asking yourself why did I want to do this in the first place?
Speaker 2:And reminding yourself the anchor your why and reminding yourself the anchor your why. And if I'm not going to be completely me in this, am I giving myself the truest chance? Of reaching that goal my, why yeah?
Speaker 1:No, I love that and it is interesting how your perspective changes. And even with this, something as not simple as posting is a big deal. But in the grand scheme of life, like putting a piece of content out is it's not like earth shattering, but it feels very big. And then you do it and then you're like, oh yeah, like. First of all, what I don't think people realize is very few people are even seeing it, like even if you have.
Speaker 1:Even if you have a big network, the algorithm only pushes it to maybe 15% or 20% of your connections. Right, most people are not even going to know that you ever even did it, and then the few that are probably aren't going to spend any time with it, and if they do, then just be like oh, whatever. And then, as you do it more consistently, the people who are seeing it is your feed, which are the people that are choosing to see it, and then I think, most of your non-engagers or whatever. You're almost invisible to them. So it's interesting, like you said, the mindset, but I love that you're moving closer towards it with the coaching and the impact and I'm really excited to see where you'll take it. I could easily go for much longer, but we'll stop here. So thanks so much for coming on, but before we go, if anyone's interested in learning more about you and what you're doing, you can let them know. Now you know where's the best, easiest way and how to find you.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean LinkedIn definitely is the easiest way. I like to call it my second home, always on it, even though I try really hard to create those boundaries. So yeah, linkedin is the easiest way. I like to call it my second home. I'm always on it, even though I try really hard to create those boundaries. So yeah, LinkedIn is the best way.
Speaker 1:Nice. This was great. It was great to meet you. Great to get all your insight and experience. Super grateful you made time for me. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Of course. Thank you so much, david, this was so much fun.