The Real You
1:1 Long-Form Interviews with Interesting People Doing Amazing Things
In-depth discussion of people's journeys to tap into their full potential and find ways to be the truest version of themselves.
The Real You
Building Deep and Meaningful Relationships - EP 18 featuring Amanda Kwok
Discover how Amanda Kwok turned a simple LinkedIn Writing Challenge into a powerful tool for personal branding and growth.
In our conversation, Amanda reveals the secrets behind her engaging online presence, where the focus is on self-disclosure and idea promotion instead of self-promotion. Listen as she shares her journey into personal development, sparked by a transformative retreat in Ireland, and how she has woven photography and storytelling into her identity on LinkedIn.
Transitioning from the tech world to luxury cabin retreats, Amanda's story illustrates the profound impact of nature on personal transformation. Faced with burnout, she found solace and inspiration in helping others disconnect from technology and reconnect with nature.
Her passion for facilitating personal growth led her to pursue a coaching certification, with a focus on empowering introverted leaders. This episode unpacks the journey of aligning professional endeavors with personal values, and the thoughtful decision-making involved in creating spaces for disconnection and reflection.
Finally, we tackle the power of authenticity and vulnerability, both in personal life and the workplace. From shedding metaphorical masks to embracing the unique strengths of introverted leaders, Amanda shares insights into harnessing soft skills such as empathy and emotional intelligence.
We touch on exercises designed to uncover true selves and discuss plans for a collaborative retreat aimed at fostering deep personal connections.
Join us for a rich exploration of personal and professional growth, and learn how to thrive as your authentic self.
linkedin.com/in/amandakwok1
quietleader.co
Welcome to the Real you Podcast. I'm your host, david Young, and this is episode number 18. This podcast discusses tapping into your full potential and finding ways to be the truest version of yourself. Today, I'm joined by Amanda Kwok, a personal development advocate and, near and dear to my heart, a fellow introvert. We will discuss her journey, how she got into coaching, how she uses LinkedIn and how she builds relationships with others. So, amanda, this is the fifth time we've tried to do this and we are finally making it happen.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for taking time to join me today. So glad we were making this happen.
Speaker 1:We had some scheduling difficulties and then some kind of acts of nature over the last six weeks, so we were supposed to do this at the end of June and then a few other times in between, and now and now here we are. So finally, I'm glad our schedules aligned and the biblical reigns subsided in Toronto and powers restored and we are, we're good to go. So thanks for thanks for making it through all of that. And it's also nice too, because we met not that long ago it's actually been almost a month ago now so we got to meet in person, which was really cool in Toronto. So I think that adds a nice element as we talk today. So we can get started. Obviously, we met via LinkedIn, where most of my guests are. How long have you been using LinkedIn, how do you use the platform and what's your take on LinkedIn?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been posting on LinkedIn for about a year now. I got started because I joined the LinkedIn Writing Challenge last August and it was a group of other coaches and speakers and musicians people who just wanted to build a personal brand on LinkedIn. The challenge was to post three times a week and I made it through all of August and saw some really great traction and just really liked the conversations that I was getting the chance to start. So I've continued with it for the year.
Speaker 1:Nice. I think your posts have to be the leaders for the best photography.
Speaker 2:You have the coolest.
Speaker 1:You always have the coolest photographs, like you do. You've been with baby goats. You've done horse. I've seen you with horses. I've seen you working out. You had one cool one where it was like you in a mirror and there were like four of you. Like it's always, you always have this really cool photography. It's really, it's really awesome, four of you. You always have this really cool photography.
Speaker 2:It's really awesome, thank you. Well, I think part of my advantage is that I'm Asian and so you can't tell how old the photos are. So some of those photos are, like I don't know, eight years old. So I have a much larger repertoire to pull on. But that mirrored photo was actually from this really cool leadership development program that they ran at a company I worked for called my Voice, my Lens.
Speaker 2:It was all about leadership development through the lens of personal photography, and so you would go around and take cool photos of yourself, essentially, and try to write some sort of tie back to leadership and what you learned. So I had a lot of experimentative photos, sometimes that that photo with um the reflections was actually uh, my, my phone was placed on top of um, a framed piece of artwork on my wall and more times than I can count. The phone fell off and hit me in the head, but the film was worth it.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that the shot you got was worth it. No, I don't know, it's just always really cool. I always struggle with pictures I never know what to put in, but yours are super cool and also your posts are always really they always feel really well thought out, they're really well written, a lot of introspection, personal stories and self-reflection. I don't see a lot of that on LinkedIn, and when you do, sometimes it can not come across all that well, but yours are always, I feel like really, I don't know they're really pertinent.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 2:One idea that has been really helpful for me, as I think through posting, is something that I heard Adam Grant talk about on a podcast, which is the difference between self promotion, idea promotion and self disclosure. So self promotions like what you typically think of, it's like look at me and how great I am, it's boasting and idea promotion is you know, I learned something that I think you'll also find valuable, and it's kind of shifting the attention off of yourself onto just helping people learn. And then self-disclosure is here are like all the ways that I've messed up in the past and mistakes that I've made and what you can learn from them so that you can avoid making them in the future. I think when I share about myself, more often than not it falls into the camp of self-disclosure, but being vulnerable and sharing things that I haven't done well in the past to help people. And then idea promotion I love reading, I love listening to podcasts, and so when I come across an idea that really resonates with me, I'm always excited to share it with other people too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that too. I know you referenced in your comments on other people's posts. You'll talk about a book that's applicable, or you heard something on a podcast. So I like how you always mix in active learning and active listening what you're consuming and then you push that out in the comments. I think that's great as well. Was it hard when you first started writing about a year ago? Was it difficult?
Speaker 2:to start getting some of those personal stories out there. No, but only because I think I've had a lot of warmup to it. I've been in the personal development world since high school. I went to a leadership development-focused summer camp, and so I've been journaling and doing personal development exercises since grade nine, and so I think I've developed a ton of self-awareness through that. And then, I'd say, the vulnerability and the sharing it more openly started probably in 2018 when I went on a retreat with my coach in Ireland and a big theme of that retreat was really showing up more fully and just helping others through sharing her story, and so I think that was the start of it. It still took a while for me to get comfortable doing it, but I think the more that I do it, the more that I realize it's not about me being uncomfortable, it's really about helping other people, and if I can share my story and help people feel like they're not alone, then that, to me, feels worth it.
Speaker 1:No, I love that, Especially making it like you said, about what people can learn. Do you get people to reach out? Maybe they're afraid to comment? Do you get messages where people are like, oh my gosh, they really resonated with me or I went through something similar. Does that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is super rewarding. I something similar. Does that happen? Yeah, which is super rewarding. I mean, you know, on one hand, I think the LinkedIn algorithm favors people who actually comment and like your post, but I think it's equally rewarding just to get the DM from people who are maybe too shy to say that publicly, but you know, the post really resonated with them.
Speaker 1:No, that's really cool and hopefully that kind of you know spurs you and others on. When you hear those messages where, even if it's tough to share, but at least if it's one person out there that feels it and it helps them in some way, then it feels like it's worth it.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:So did you use LinkedIn, like most people, like a virtual resume as you were working in corporate?
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you comment at all, or you it was. You just logged in like every two months and looked at job updates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I definitely wasn't very active. I probably I started with. When I first started posting last August, I think I had about 1800 connections. Now I'm at almost 3900. So it's cool to have seen it have doubled over the course of the last year as you post more and as you gain more of a following.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I think when I started I had 450 and I don't even know how many of those I even knew. I think it was just like I'd be on a Zoom call with a sales rep in like eight states away and see him on LinkedIn and be like, oh, we have five share connections connect and like that was the connection right, so there was no, like they wouldn't even know who I was.
Speaker 1:Barely so, but now you've like five x'd your audience right like uh close yeah that's amazing well, when you start, when you start small, it's easier to, it's easier to grow but still, that's amazing I spent a lot of time on the platform um. I don't know if my hourly rate of followers I don't know probably would be pretty small, and so was it hard. When you took the or you signed up for that workshop, was it to kind of force you to start writing. Had you wanted to post, or what was the impetus to be like, hey, I'm going to start creating some content for myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, just have more accountability.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I learned in my first half a year as a coach is that I'm not very good at working on my own.
Speaker 2:I've always been very external accountability, deadline driven, and so I struggled a ton, honestly, to just keep myself on track and to grow at the pace that I wanted to, and so I felt like having a group of you know, 25 to 30 other people who have who have all committed to posting at the same time, was really helpful accountability. The other thing that was useful which LinkedIn doesn't love, but the idea of engagement pods, which is when everyone posts at the same time, what really matters is your engagement on your post within the first hour of it being live, and so the commitment amongst that group was that we'd all post at 12 noon and we would all engage with each other's posts in the first hour. So that just helped boost all of our algorithm and the viewership. So that was really helpful just the algorithm and the viewership. So that was really helpful and it just that gave me extra incentive to want to post three times a week, cause I felt like I'd be missing out on their engagement if I didn't keep to that.
Speaker 1:No, I like that. What you're talking about with, like the external kind of motivator. Have you ever read Gretchen Rubin's book the four tendencies?
Speaker 2:Do you know that book?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting. I think you would really like it. So it's, you can basically categorize people into four buckets, which is either you respond to internal and external one of each or neither. It's like obliger, rebel, I don't know. I don't remember all the terms, but anyway, so my wife, the book is really eyeopening for me because my wife, as I learned by reading the book, is uh, and I don't know what the term is, but she's not internally motivated, so she is externally motivated.
Speaker 1:So like, if she wants to work out, it would be much easier for her if she signed up for like a spin class or a session with a trainer, because she knows that she's made that commitment. But if she's going to get up on her own to do like a home workout or whatever, it's much harder for her because she just doesn't have that like external, you know factor. Yeah, um, it was really eye-opening because it was like and that's the way the book reads is, it's just hardwired and it doesn't really change like throughout your life, like you just you either are, you aren't, and then once you kind of learn it, then it can make it a lot easier for you.
Speaker 1:If you're like, oh well, I need. I need this group, or I need this platform, or I need a friend to show up to make me do this, and then you do it, so then you can follow through.
Speaker 2:When I think not shaming yourself or judging yourself for whatever your tendency is right. Just accepting that that's how you operate and playing to kind of your strengths and making sure that you're setting yourself up for success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true, but that's a good, it's an interesting read. I think you would. I think you would like it. I mean, her stuff is good, but that book in particular. Now, as you as you were making your way through corporate, had you always kind of thought like, at some point, you kind of wanted to, you know be, you kind of wanted to you know be on your own and kind of run your own kind of online coaching business that evolve over time, or kind of how did you start the wheel, start spinning, to like start thinking about doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I think I grew up wanting to start my own hotel.
Speaker 2:So, that was the driving force for a long time, and a lot of that was motivated by just the idea of like wanting to make wake up, to make people's days Like I've just somewhere in my DNA. I get really excited about that, and what I realized over time was that it was actually less about creating, creating those like surprise and delight hospitality moments. It was actually about wanting to make people feel seen and help them connect more deeply with themselves, and so I didn't know that I wanted to be a coach. What it got me to realize that, I would say first and foremost, is what I already shared around just being introduced to the world of personal development really early, but I hired my first coach when I was 25.
Speaker 2:I've since worked with over 10 coaches and I've always seen the value of coaching and the impact that they can have, for a long time never thought I'd have the confidence to do it on my own. And then, during the pandemic, when I was leading a 40-person customer experience team at a tech company, I hit a point of burnout and depression and realized that what I was doing no longer felt fulfilling. And I had this moment of clarity that what would feel fulfilling is helping people connect more deeply with themselves. And so V1 of that actually wasn't coaching. V1 was actually back in't coaching.
Speaker 2:V1 was actually back in the hospitality world. It was luxury cabins nestled in the forest to help people disconnect from technology in the city and reconnect with nature and themselves. Because for me, yeah, being in nature has always been a shortcut to connecting to myself. And then through that, I realized I don't want to just build an experience and hope someone has a transformation. I want to be more directly involved. And so that's when coaching just felt like a no-brainer and I signed up for my coaching certification, and that's how my journey began.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. What were those like the cabin type things? Was it like outside of Toronto Is?
Speaker 2:that where they were located. Yeah Away from the city though. Yeah, how Is that where they were located?
Speaker 1:Yeah Away from the city, though. Yeah, how long did you do that? What was your involvement? What did you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I led all of our guest experience so I just built the customer journey from end to end, from them booking on the website to all the emails they received from us, to all the housewares that were in the cabin and the activities that happened on site.
Speaker 1:Nice. Is that something people would do for like a long weekend? Would they come for a week? Like what kind of trip would that be for the people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, for the most part we had a minimum stay of two nights, so for the most part it was shorter trips like that, but really just like a quick escape from the city, if you will, to be in nature and our mission was all about returning humanity to the wild, is what we said, so just reconnecting people to their roots, into nature yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 1:It's hard to be super stressed when you're just uh, especially if you don't have your phone with you and you're just like on a trail or just outside, like it's almost a natural yeah, yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker 2:We went back and forth on whether or not to have wi-fi in the cabins and we wanted people to have this disconnected experience and get to experience that just it's not like spaciousness and clarity and everything that comes from being disconnected. But we realized that a lot of our target customers weren't used to being in nature and so we wanted them to feel safe. So we we were kind of like we think we need to have wifi just from a safety perspective or if they wanted to be in contact with their family, for example. But what we said was like if we're doing our job well and the programming on site is compelling enough, people will have access to wifi, but they won't use it. So that was. We never actually tracked it, but we always had this aspirational idea to actually track internet consumption on site to see, if like to see how long people were actually using it for when they were in our covenants.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. I mean, people are addicted so I don't know it's hard to pry them away.
Speaker 2:I think you might have to just disable it, Like what you should that's what you should offer it, then it never works, um? So then I don't think we'd get five star reviews. I think you need to set the expectation. If we set the expectation that there's wi-fi and there's no wi-fi or it's, very small and you get the one star review.
Speaker 1:That's true. You could always bury it, um, but uh, no, that's good. That's really cool. How long, like? How long did you do that?
Speaker 2:I worked on that for years oh, wow the company's still going um, but I just chose to transition out to focus on my coaching business nice, um, and were you when you started thinking about transitioning?
Speaker 1:uh, were you thinking like who you wanted to work with? Was it going to be one-on-one, one to group? Like how did you kind of settle on what you ended up doing?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, um, so I'll answer both of those questions separately.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of who I wanted to work with, originally I thought I wanted to work with senior leaders in tech because that's where I came from, and so what I did was I interviewed 10 people who fit that profile, who were in my network, and really just asked them about like challenges they were facing, what was keeping them up at night, and I just wanted to get a sense one for what were the words that they were actually using to describe their challenges so that I could use that in my marketing.
Speaker 2:Um, but two, like what were the types of things that actually excited me versus? You know, I that I didn't want to coach people on, uh, and that from those interviews I realized that the person that I was most excited to coach was another introverted leader, and so then I kind of pivoted and I was like maybe it's actually this. And so I interviewed another 10 introverted leaders and really started to get excited about the opportunity and how I could help people. And so that's how I landed on introverted leaders as my niche, and I think a big part of it, too is I struggled a ton as an introvert that I saw everything transform on my team, and so, just having experienced the power of that, I'm now super passionate about helping other people do that themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. A couple of follow-ups there. So did you find it where people was it hard for them to identify as an introverted leader? Like, did they know what that meant? Like, did you have a? Was it easy for them to be like, oh yeah, I'm a leader and I'm introverted? Or did you have to kind of like, explain it to them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think, in terms of introvert, extrovert most people know at this point In terms of leader, I think that there's a lot of people think leader is synonymous with manager and for me, I actually don't care whether or not my clients are people, managers. For me, a leader is just someone who wants to make an impact bigger than themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always thought of that in the same way as just trying to help people be the best versions of themselves.
Speaker 1:And it doesn't matter if you're the one in charge, you could be wherever, but if you're seen as that person, yeah wherever, but if you're seen as like that person, yeah, um, yeah, it really resonates because I was always really introverted, like really, really introverted. As a kid, I was an only child. I uh, you know, I would sit in the back of every class, I would never raise my hand, I would never volunteer for anything yeah, I would hate it if I got called on to read a passage from a textbook.
Speaker 1:It was terrifying. I went on for quite a while it probably was until my early 20s where I slowly worked my way through it. But even still, I don't love going to parties or meeting a bunch of new people at the same time. I don't want to do that. Yeah, it's not like I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can relate to that. I think too. I think one of the biggest tips for introverts is to focus on energy management instead of time management. And for me, the questions that I ask in terms like the questions that I ask myself to figure out what I do and do not say yes to the first questions really like figure out what I do and do not say yes to the first question is really like does this environment or group or activity make me feel alive? And so if it's energizing, then I'll say yes. If my answer to that question is no, then I'll ask myself the second question of is my why or my reason for wanting to go to this thing bigger than my discomfort? And so if it's a friend's birthday or a housewarming or I want to go see a speaker at a big conference, I might say yes, even though the actual environment that's, you know, a lot of people would otherwise be training.
Speaker 1:No, that's a good. I mean, that's a good way to frame it. Um, I don't know if I've ever done I don't think I've ever done anything that smart and logical. I usually, I'm, usually I'm just like I don't want to go.
Speaker 2:The other thing, though, that I wanted to share, just based on what you shared around your experience at school, is, I feel like, oftentimes, people confuse introversion and shyness, and I think often there is an overlap between the two, and for sure, I was both an introvert and shy growing up, and still am a little to this day. But you know, introversion is about where you get your energy from, and so it's generally someone who gains energy from solitude rather than social interaction, whereas shyness is actually fear of people's judgment and like social anxiety versus energy related.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, even in terms of like raising your hand and, you know, speaking in front of the class. I actually think that's more a symptom of shyness than introversion, but I think often they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say I feel like I can have conflated the two, I think in my mind it's confusing.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I get confused about what is truly introversion versus shyness, Like I used to. I remember in school, anytime there were like raffles, I would get really anxious about the idea of my number being called because I didn't want to go up in front of everyone, and I actually think that's shyness, but for a long time I just thought that was me being an introvert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. I've never won any drawing or raffle. I never had to worry about that.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I won any of the live raffles, although a few months ago I was on this giveaway winning streak, but it was thankfully all online so I didn't have to go up in front of anyone.
Speaker 1:I think I could be in a two-person raffle and I'd be like you don't even have to call the number. It's good we know who's gonna win. That's interesting. Yeah, I have to think about that like shy versus introvert. But yeah, I mean it's gotten better now. Like I don't. I don't think of it as much now, um, but you know life, you know as you evolve and, yeah, change, and you go through more experiences and you know you get a little bit more comfortable yeah um, but I definitely still really prefer, but not prefer, but I really like my alone time yeah um, like when school's out, my family's all here at the house like can you guys leave?
Speaker 1:I like it, it's not. I like it quiet, just the dog and I, he doesn't make any noise.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, that's, that's really interesting. Um, as you started to work then, are you? So you started to narrow in on the introverted leader concept as you started to work then, so you started to narrow in on the introverted leader concept as you started to work with them. Were there anything like common trends or themes? As you were like, going, working through, you know what they were wanting to improve on. Was there anything that came up that was common?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the most common feedback that my clients get from their managers is that they need to speak up more and let their voice be heard, and what I've come to realize is that's a really extroverted way of contribution, and so I think introverts are often told that they have a volume problem, when in actual fact, I think it's actually a visibility problem. So it's not that you need to be louder or that you need to necessarily speak up more in meetings, but you do need to be willing to share your ideas and contribute. But it doesn't need to look the same way that extroverts contribute, and so you know that could be writing a message on Slack or in a Microsoft Teams chat, or it could be sending an email or meeting with people one-on-one. There's other ways that are, I think, more introvert, friendly and more sustainable and energizing for introverts, but I think it's important to find your own way of doing things and just give yourself permission to do it differently than an extrovert might.
Speaker 1:No, I like that. I rarely spoke up, even recently when I was in meetings, but I felt like when I did say something, then it would hold more weight because they would know that I've thought about it and I've analyzed it and I feel like there's some value in what I'm going to say. I'm not just talking to talk, because some people are just like they want to hear the sound of their own voice and they'll say anything and you're like don't, this is this, is adding, there's this is adding nothing whereas I feel like when I did it, at least in my head, I was like all right, like I actually have something yeah to say so.
Speaker 1:I think that's the power, I think of introversion, because for the most part you can. You can be pretty certain that they've thought, they've thought it through. It might not be right, but they've've at least given it some level of detail and they've run it through and checked. They're not just blurting it out. So I think, that should be weighed more. I feel like in that setting.
Speaker 2:I completely agree, and it makes me think of the idea that introverts think to speak, whereas extroverts speak to think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of the time the reason that you know an extrovert is speaking so much is because they're actually processing and thinking through informing their opinion, whereas an introvert internalizes and processes first before sharing their opinion. And I think that the tough part is a lot of extroverts mistake silence as someone not having an opinion or being disengaged, and so then they feel the silence which results in introverts not getting to share their opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can totally feel that. Well, I was in sales for a while too and it was always like you couldn't be a good salesperson if you were an introvert, right, because you weren't a people person and you had a hard time making small talk and bonding with clients and all that kind of stuff, which I was never a huge fan of small talk. So I was like I don't want to talk about the weather, right, or like whatever, like can we just talk about something different.
Speaker 2:but that was always seen as like a detriment well, it's interesting because in fourth year university I wanted to take the sales management course but I 80% of the mark was based on a live role play and in my head I was like I'm not going to do well with that. As an introvert, as someone who I, have this lifelong narrative that I'm not good at thinking on my feet, and so the idea of doing that and having it account for so much of my mark terrified me and in the end I don't know what convinced me, but I did end up taking the course and I ended up getting the top mark in that simulation.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:The thing that actually how my introversion helps me in that situation is. I think I'm naturally more oriented to listening. I'm also very curious, and so I just ask a lot of questions, and I can better understand. You know what. What is the true pain point that the client has, and how can our solution potentially fit that Part of it, too, though, is just being really observant of small details that people don't expect you to remember. I think that's partially also my hospitality customer experience brain, but I love picking up on those small things and finding ways to either bring them back into conversation or to send gifts to people that just make them feel obscene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love that. I think that's actually another power of introverts is the listening and asking questions. I think some of it might come from not really wanting to talk or share your opinions. You're like, well, I'll ask another question, but it also then you're gathering all this information which then you're analyzing, which then can inform future discussions. So I think that's a cool aspect. I'm kind of the same way You'd be a good podcast host Keep asking questions Um, what, um, what have you found, like what have been kind of some of the breakthroughs with like some of your clients, where you kind of identified, you know, whether it's being more visible or or speaking up or or whatnot. Like what I don you know whether it's being more visible or speaking up or whatnot. Like what I don't know, what would you say are like some of the breakthroughs or where you've really kind of helped them kind of open up the doors?
Speaker 2:I think a big part of what I do is helping introverts find their voice, and the biggest part of that is really helping connect people with their core values and their purpose and their strengths and using that as something that pulls them into speaking up or into action versus feeling like they need to push against this discomfort.
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of the work that I've done with my clients is just getting them really clear on their core values and then, where they either are in alignment with those at work or out of alignment, and then through that clarity they're able to speak up because they know that they just care so much about that thing. I'd say that is a common theme in what I do. Some of it, too, is just I think most of the work that I do is kind of mindset, limiting, belief based. I do some tactical stuff in terms of communication. I think that's helpful in the moment, but ultimately I think that the bigger impact is just getting really clear on like your why and then removing all the blockers and the limiting beliefs that get in the way of you showing up the way you want to.
Speaker 1:No, I like that. I like the mix of kind of what you do. Do you put them through any kind of like strengths assessment, like career personality or personality profile or career profile, to start to draw a picture, to use that at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my favorite strengths assessment is called the Reflected Best Self Exercise. It comes out of the University of Michigan and the idea is basically that you reach out to about 20 people from different parts of your life and you ask them to share one to three stories of when they've seen you at your best. And it's just this really interesting way to get a sense for strengths that sometimes you don't even realize are impactful to other people. I think more often than not people read the stories they get from their storytellers and they don't even remember the interactions half the time, and yet it left such a big impact on that person. So it's helpful to, I think, identify blind spots and strengths and just I think the narrative format of it just makes it I don't know in some way just like richer information than just an assessment.
Speaker 1:Like I do like CliftonStrengths, but I find that the storytelling from an external perspective even more powerful, you know, obviously deeper and more reflective. It's more like how would you describe me? What are my top strengths? Um, what problem would you come to me to solve, or whatever? Um, so I've done it in a much more limited capacity, but I mean it's along the same idea, but obviously that's a more kind of a richer, deeper thing. But I like, yeah, that's interesting how you can identify things that cause it's hard for us to see our own, it's hard to look like, you know, step outside of yourself and look back, which I think yeah, certainly myself, and I think a lot of people struggle like to kind of do that, which is why coaching and, you know, mentors and all that kind of stuff are so valuable, because they can yeah more easily see it and reflect it back to you and you're like, oh, I never even thought about to.
Speaker 2:for a long time, I viewed my innate strengths as these soft, fluffy skills that weren't actually that important, and part of it was because I kept putting myself in environments where I wasn't able to play to my strengths and so I didn't like I never saw my real, my natural strengths as true strengths. Until you know, I allowed myself to do something like coaching, or even the hospitality world, where the things that come naturally to me are what make me a good coach, for example yeah, and I think the whole like hard skills versus soft skills, I think it's a really poor.
Speaker 1:I don't like that terminology. Um, do you know the origin?
Speaker 2:of that. No, it comes from the army, I'm pretty sure, and hard skills originally referred to. If you were working on machinery and soft skills is anything just unrelated to machinery, and so it's just so funny that we undervalue soft skills, even though the origin of it was not anything to do with what like how we view it today well, that really got twisted.
Speaker 1:That did not, that did not continue, uh, the way I was supposed to. But yeah, it's almost like looked down upon, right, like the people, skills and communication and creativity and thoughtfulness and empathy and like all these things which are critical to almost everything yeah but then those are classified as like soft, which is, you know whatever reason, classified as like a step down yeah, when really they should be called like human skills or life skills, yeah, like I don't. I don't know, it's weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting because I started my career management consulting and at every big promotion point they'd have us do the MyersBriggs assessment and I'm pretty sure that the split the kind of most junior level, it was about 25% feeling, 75% thinking. So feeling is you make decisions based on your emotions, thinking is you make emotions based on logic and fact. And then at the senior partner level, the percentage of people who were feeling oriented was even lower. It was, I think, 10%. And yet the thing that they needed to work on most in order to build the client relationships was actually that whole feeling, empathy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think it's super interesting that it's not valued but also so critical to build relationships.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, it's completely backwards. I mean, I think emotional intelligence should be taught early on in school and then, honestly, from that point forward, I don't think you can get enough of that, because it's just so critical to personal relationships, work relationships, friends, like just literally life right. The better, better you are handling your own emotions and then processing others just helps everything um. But I don't remember hearing hardly anything about that until I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, um, but I never took.
Speaker 1:We actually talked about this when we had dinner, um, you know, all the courses that my companies made me take were all these very tactical you know anti-bribery, cyber security, governance, you know like all of this kind of stuff, but there was almost nothing on emotions and co-worker relationships and like all this kind of stuff and I was like I think we have this backwards.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess, if they're trying to train you on on anti-bribery, maybe empathy is not the thing they want you to develop well, that's true, but it's like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I felt like I think I mean, obviously there's some really nuanced situations, but the situations they always had in those courses were like comical, right, like you're in a foreign country and they offer you fifty thousand dollars for your bid to go up. Should you say yes or no? No, it's like, oh, I don't know, let me think about that. Is that that's probably? That's probably fine, come on Anyway, but but yeah, so it just should be. I mean, it's, I'm seeing it more. I see a lot of it on LinkedIn and hopefully that is transferring like down into like corporations and they're talking about it more and they're doing workshops or, you know, online courses or whatever, so that people are just like more aware. So hopefully you know that continues. It's funny. You're talking about the roleplay. There was someone someone on LinkedIn, I think it was just today she offered free roleplaying if you were struggling with converting leads into clients on sales calls she was offering you free like roleplay, like she would play the client and you would be, you know, selling your service or product.
Speaker 1:and a I thought that was a really interesting idea and b I just brought back like horror stories because I hated role.
Speaker 1:Hated role playing when I was in sales yeah, and I think some of that is going back to the idea, for me anyway, of not being good at thinking on my feet, like role play to me is that, and so it feels my brain goes into fight or flight well, it always felt really artificial to me like yeah they could never like, because my boss in my last job, my boss tried to do it and it was impossible for me to have a conversation with him, thinking of him as like the client, like I already knew he knew everything that I was talking about, like I couldn't, I couldn't put him, like the client would never know, have his level of knowledge. So it was, I don't know, it was just was I get it like I understand, like articulating it and getting the words and yeah overcoming objections and like all the stuff, like it makes logical sense, but I don't feel like it had very practical sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, some of it's just about getting the reps in. Honestly, as a coach, when I first started I had this I don't know 20-page Google document of all the coaching questions that I'd compiled from different places, and I would open that document and cram for it like an exam. I would just try to read through all the questions and I think in my head I was like, if I memorize all these questions, it will minimize the chances that I freeze up during a coaching call and don't have a question to ask. But over time you just learn to trust yourself more and just trust that the right question will come out, rather than feeling like you need to memorize all these things. Some of that I feel like to get comfortable, like that probably took me, I don't know a hundred hours of coaching before I actually started trusting myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that makes sense. That leads me to the improv class. So you just recently signed up for an improv. When we talked last month, you had not I don't think you had attended a class yet, but I think you have now correct. Yeah, attended a class yet, but I think you have now correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how's like, how, what's that experience been like? So I really like it. So this improv class is specifically improv for business, so they take improv skills but then show you how it's more applicable to the work world. And what I like is that it's not. It's not focused on, like, character development and performance. It's more focused on getting yourself to think on your feet and to tap into your creativity.
Speaker 2:And I'd say the concept that's resonated most, that I think is helpful even outside of the improv world, is this idea of don't don't try to be funny or interesting. Be obvious, like, say, the obvious thing, and the expression is dare to be dull. To be funny or interesting. Be obvious, like, say, the obvious thing, and the expression is dare to be dull. And the interesting thing that happens is when we set this high bar of trying to be really interesting and funny and witty, our brain actually gets hijacked and we actually can't think as quickly on our feet. But when we give ourselves permission to be dull and we lower the bar, we actually have access to our full brain capacity. So, paradoxically, we're more likely to actually be interesting.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, I think that now that you're saying that you wrote a post about that, because that sounds familiar. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I don't know if you remember. So I said I can talk about this because when this episode comes out it already happened, because not very many people know about this. I said in the post that I would rather do uh open mic night at a stand-up than than do an improv class yeah so I'm doing it in six weeks, okay that's awesome yeah, I'm doing six minutes.
Speaker 1:Um, and maybe, uh, my wife is terrified, um, she's, she's like I don't, I don't know why you're doing this. I don't, this is not a good idea. Like what if nobody laughs like I don't, this is not I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I'm just jesus is like perplexed. Um, but I'm like I've wanted to do it for a long time. When I was stuck in cubicle, hell, and all the weird shit that was going on in offices which drove me absolutely crazy. I just would take all these notes and I was like I just want to get up on stage, I want to tell all this dumb shit that I see, and so that's what I'm going to do. I was going to get up and tell stories about working in a cubicle and some some other things. Um, so, yeah, we'll see, uh, but it's uh, but it's uh. Everybody keeps like are you terrified? And I'm like, well, I probably will be when I walk on stage, but like it's six weeks away, so I'm not, not right now yeah, open mic is like is it all scripted?
Speaker 2:like you have all your jokes pre-planned right, or your stories yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, first of all, that's what I told my wife. I was like, first of all, no one's expecting like jerry seinfeld to walk up on stage right, like everyone that's that's coming because you have to bring people. So it's not like a regular, just randomly. Whoever is there that night, like the people that are doing it have to bring people. So you're already speaking of low bars like hopefully everyone's bar is like quite low, like you're literally watching not professional comedians just try. So like just they're doing their best. So I'm like I don't think they're expecting, like it's not a comedy, all stars um, so that's awesome.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to hear.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that's what I thought it was like it'll be a great experience. If it goes terribly, it'll be a great story. If it goes great, it'll also be a great story. Like it's a great story regardless. Yeah, and most people would never do it so like why not? Yeah um, but I wouldn't do the improv class like I would. I would do this, yeah, so I.
Speaker 2:I'm not performing, though, so that helps, I think. But I did previously do an improv class um at second city. That was more performance based okay and I did not like that one because it was like things like do this whole scene speaking Martian and I just yeah, you know, it's not normal. No, and I was just like how is this going to help me? And I literally can only say words that are not real words.
Speaker 1:That's funny. So let's talk about, I know one of the things that's important to you is like building relationships and like more than just like several, several relationships, like those really where you get to know people you know on a deeper level, like what is your? Do you have a process around that, or is it something you do naturally? Is it something you kind of work on, Like kind of how do you go about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say that there are two things that come to mind. The first is I just know that I am way more comfortable one-on-one or in small group environments, so I always just try to play to my strengths, I guess, and I'm much more likely to schedule a one-on-one coffee or just go to intimate facilitated conversations or dinners rather than a big networking event. I just find one-on-one. I show up a lot differently than I do in big groups, and so if I'm trying to get to know someone and build a relationship, then I want to make sure that I am feeling energized and not drained.
Speaker 2:I think the bigger thing is just giving myself permission to ask different questions and go deep. I think for a long time I stayed at the surface and asked the same questions that everyone does. They're like how are you, what do you do for work? Because I just assume that's what people expected and I assume that they thought they would think that I was weird for asking different questions and increasingly I've just given myself permission to ask the questions that I'm interested in and I ended up building a deeper relationship because of that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I like that. Yeah, I think sorry go ahead, oh I was going to say you went to Ali's, rosaco's had a coaching dinner fairly recently. It was like 18 or 20 people, is that? How was that group for you? Is that too many or is that about right?
Speaker 2:Or like how does that? Yeah, I think because we all had coaching in common. We were all coaches. It was easier to make conversation because we had that starting point yeah, for me my favorite group size is 12 or less.
Speaker 2:I like hosting intimate dinners and I never go more than 12 because I like to have one full table conversation so that everyone has the same experience, versus, you know, small pockets of conversations and some people might have really great conversations and other people are just, you know, falling flat. So, yeah, I would say I mean 20 is fine. Yeah, yeah, I would say I mean 20 is fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Anything bigger than that I start to get a little wary of. But again, if my why is big enough, then I might say yes.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, let's talk about your dinner parties, because that's fascinating to me, kind of how it got started. I know it's based on a book that you read and then kind of how you organize them, and there's themes like, yeah, tell people about those are really really really interesting Sure Thanks.
Speaker 2:So actually it wasn't inspired by Priya Parker's book, although Priya.
Speaker 2:Parker's book, the Art of Gathering, kind of reinforced what I was doing and gave me I felt like I finally had permission to do things that I naturally did but always felt kind of sheepish doing Okay. My first dinner, I believe I think it was 2011. It was for my birthday and I was inspired by a dinner that my friend Marcelo hosted called the Lucky 12. And it was 12 people at a dinner. He had a box of question cards called Gravitas and the idea was just, you know, having meaningful facilitated conversation with a small group, and I think at the time he would have everyone switch seating arrangements every course. So it was a chance to just get to know different people.
Speaker 2:And I was just inspired reading about his dinner and I invited 12 friends from different parts of my life together for my birthday dinner and use the same deck of cards, and we just had this really beautiful conversation in a private dining room and it made so much of an impact that for my half birthday six months later, my friends decided to organize a half birthday party and we all met at the same restaurant and had another great conversation. So that was fun. That was the beginning of it. Then I started to try to one up myself and get more and more creative every year. One year it was an indoor picnic where I outfitted my whole living room with AstroTurf and picnic blankets and fake trees.
Speaker 2:We had a picnic on the grounds the next year was a tea party with porcelain and scones and tea and stuff like that, and the next year was a an adult-sized blanket fort for 16 people, which I do not recommend.
Speaker 2:It was so frustrating to try to build because you know for adults you can't just put up sheets like on a table or chairs like, and so I think I tried I the sheets to those 3M hooks on the wall and they kept falling off, and it was a very frustrating experience, but I finally succeeded. And then after that I decided that I didn't have to keep innovating. I could just stay to the tried and true model of dinner in a private dining room, and what I changed every year instead was the theme of the conversation, and so one of my favorite ways to host dinners is I'll share a theme in advance and I ask every guest to come with a question related to that theme. When they arrive at the dinner, they write down the question and put it into a jar, and we spend the duration of dinner picking questions out at random and discussing them jar and we spend the duration of dinner picking questions out at random and discussing those, so it's kind of yeah.
Speaker 2:what I like about it is it gives people a chance to ask a question that maybe is a bit more vulnerable, that they might not feel comfortable asking in a room full of strangers, but because it's kind of anonymous, they're able to put it out there.
Speaker 1:That's a great idea because, yeah, I think it frees people right when they know it's not going to identify them. Then you can be like oh, I'm really curious, especially if you're in a group like that and maybe you don't know everyone. Or even if you do, there might be something you want to know about the group you haven't covered before. That's a really great idea. So is it yearly then? Do you just do it every year around your birthday?
Speaker 2:Well, so, yeah, I that's a really great idea. So do you? Is it yearly then? Do you just do it every year, like around your birthday? Well, so, yeah, I host one for my birthday and then I probably host right now I actually host monthly dinners for entrepreneurs, so every month. But um outside of that entrepreneurial community I probably host I don't know three, three dinners a year nice, yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker 1:Um, such a unique idea I've never, I've never, I don't think I've ever even like heard of it. I mean, I've heard of like just standard dinner parties where you just have people over and have food and drinks but it's just like regular conversation and you just talk to whoever you're like next to, but it's not, doesn't really have a theme, or you're not switching seats or you're not like. You're just talking about like sports and politics and weather and like all the you. You know standard, you know standard stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is like my idea of health.
Speaker 2:So I I like to joke that I'm allergic to small talk and, yeah, I think one of the things that I really loved from Priya Parker's book, the art of gathering, was this idea of starting by setting a really clear purpose for your gathering and then using that purpose as a bouncer for your event, which actually means intentionally excluding people in service of whatever your purpose is.
Speaker 2:And I think for a long time I always for my birthdays I would generally say no significant others, even though most other people, by social convention, their partners are just automatically invited to no birthday dinners, and I always used to feel kind of guilty about that. But from my point of view, I just feel like, especially when you're having one group conversation, the depth of the conversation tends to stay at the level of the person who is least comfortable going deep, and so I just especially if I didn't know people's partners, it kind of just felt like a wild card that could completely alter the dynamic of the conversation and so I would always say no partners but would feel guilty about it. But then, after reading Priya's book and this encouragement to use purpose as the bouncer, I felt a lot more comfortable doing that.
Speaker 1:No, I like that. I had this idea for a party. My wife hated it, I'll see what you think. So, as she's a bit, you know, she's a lifelong teacher and this was many, many years ago. We were living in Chicago and we had a relatively small apartment and we had a party, and so it felt it felt very packed even though there weren't that many people. So it felt very packed even though there weren't that many people, and so I was very uncomfortable and all they talked about was teaching.
Speaker 1:Like every conversation was about administration, students, parents, curriculum. I was like can they talk about anything else? So after everyone left which was way too late I said I have an idea. I want to do that again. But the second anyone talks shop, they have to leave. And do you think we can get everybody out of here in 30 minutes. And she was like that's so mean. And I was like why don't you guys talk about something else? There's more to life than students, administration, textbooks and curriculum. Let's talk about something else. And she's like we're passionate about it. This is what we want to talk about. And I'm like well, there's other people here that don't.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, I never got a chance to do it, but I think 30 minutes. I don't think there's any way. Anybody's still standing at 30 minutes.
Speaker 2:I went to an event called Dinner with Strangers where the only rule was no work talk, and it was actually really refreshing to not make that small talk about work yeah no, I like your party idea but yeah and I it feels like the underlying um motivations also just to cut the party short, not have them stay super late.
Speaker 1:It was a win all around for me um it could also be.
Speaker 2:Everyone takes a shot when someone talks. Shot to. These are really, really drunk people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know that happened. I think that kind of happened anyway, so I don't know. I don't think we needed to speed that part up Anyway, but I think the idea is great. I love that. You do it, you're committed to doing it, you do it consistently and then you get so much out of it. I think it's really, it's fascinating and I just I love it.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:As we kind of wind down here, you know part of the reason I started this show. As you know, I was really struggled with what we talked about earlier, like growing up and being an only child, and I feel like I wore all these different masks right, Like I was different. I was like nine different people, depending on what situation I was in.
Speaker 1:My parents divorced. So I was different with my mom and dad. I was different with both sides of the family. I was different at school, friends, teachers. So you're always trying to remember like, oh, what is it okay to say here and all this stuff right. And then as you get older you start to kind of realize that and then where I am now, it's like, well, I don't, I don't really want to wear like hardly any mask, if I can help it. I understand there's certain like social situations where, like you kind of have to. But like the point is like as we get older and we mature and we go through life and ups and downs and experiences, we start to tap into like kind of who we really are, what's our voice and then who we're comfortable being around the most. So I'd be curious to get your take on just like that evolution that we can kind of step into as we learn more about ourselves, we can kind of step into like that true version of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that question. The thing that comes up hearing you talk about masks is an exercise I did at a retreat last year. All around, we were handed literally paper masks and told to write down on the mask all the masks that we wear on a daily basis, and I wrote things down like you know, perfectionist or like polished or like you know all these ways that I wanted other people to perceive me. What I ended up realizing through that experiment was one of the biggest masks that I actually wear is my smile, because people know me as being really positive and having this great smile, and I like to fit that mold, and so there are times when I'm not actually feeling overly upbeat or happy and I still put on a smile, because I assume that's how I need to show up, to like be congruent with how people see me.
Speaker 2:So I think some of it's just giving ourselves permission to not always have to be happy or on, or acting in accordance with this identity that other people see us as. I think a big part, though, of being authentic is also being able to give oxygen to some of the stuff that we feel ashamed of, not with everyone, but being vulnerable with people who. I think Brene Brown talks about the idea of people who've earned the right to hear our story. There's just so much power in sharing something with others and realizing you're not alone in what you're going through. And I think she talks about how the two most powerful words in busting shame are the two words me too about how the two most powerful words in Busting Shame are the two words, me too.
Speaker 2:But I think, you know, it's not until we can both like, accept and embrace these you know, shadow sides of us, that we can fully show up authentically, because otherwise it's just you know part of us, it's the good part of us, but then what about this? You know disowned part of us. So I think that's what comes to mind as I think about just integrating our full selves and showing up more fully in every area of our life.
Speaker 1:No, I like that a lot. It reminds me of heard coaches talk about that's the power of like group therapy Just hearing one, because we always assume we're alone, right, like we're going through something. We have an impossible time understanding that, like it's actually mathematically impossible that we're the only ones going through it, but yet it still feels like we're it. But when you do like a group session, it just takes one other person to share something similar, yeah, and it's like this weight is released because you're like oh, there's at least one more that like feels this way or thinks this way, or whatever, and so that's as you were talking about that, like me too, it's like. It's just, I don't know. It's like I don't know what the right word is reaffirming, maybe, or or freeing, where you're just like oh, okay.
Speaker 1:It's not just me.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and that's actually to go back to one of your earlier questions. Up until this point, the first year and a half of my coaching business, I've focused just on one-on-one coaching, but I increasingly feel this draw to do small group coaching programs for that exact reason Just people hearing someone else share their story and realizing they're not alone in what they're going through. And actually I don't know if you know this or not yet, but Adea another one of our coach friends and I are collaborating on our first retreat, in-person retreat.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, no, I did not know that, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really exciting to be designing together.
Speaker 1:Without giving too much away. What's the blueprint?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the theme of the retreat is all around the idea of homecoming, so coming home to yourself after being away for a long time, and this idea that we've, like, lost parts of ourselves, you know, in the same way that you might lose I don't know, a water bottle or a towel or something in a lost and found and just finding that true essence again and being reunited with those parts of you that you've been away from for so long.
Speaker 1:No, that's amazing. I'm a little upset with her. She did not share that with me, so you're not with me, just to dare.
Speaker 2:It's new. It's like two weeks in in uh, in the works all right, I'm gonna tell her.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna exaggerate that and be like amanda said you guys have been working on this for like six months and you haven't talked about it. But no, that's amazing. I assume it's going to be like in and around Toronto.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in nature, but two hours outside of Toronto.
Speaker 1:You can use your cabins.
Speaker 2:We can't because our pilot site is currently closed. We also only had three cabins at our pilot site, versus the new site that we were working on was going to be 25 cabins, but it's a little delayed.
Speaker 1:Got it. What's the ballpark of how many people are you hoping to get?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we actually want to keep it intimate. So eight people is the experience we want to run.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I think it really perfectly ties together true self homecoming. We can get sideways sometimes in life. Uh, sometimes intentionally, a lot of times not, um, and when you get off track like it's, sometimes it's very hard to get off the track. Yeah, um, that's what I did in my career, like I just got on this path of kind of disgruntled jobs I didn't really want, but then you have to do them and then you have kids and you have a mortgage and like all these things and you're like, well, I have to work. And then 15 years goes by and you're like wait a second, I didn't want to, I didn't want to do any of this. How did I? How did this happen? So you do, you get kind of just out of everything, gets a little bit like stretched and you're just kind of out of touch.
Speaker 1:So I love the idea of like that kind of return inward yeah thanks, yeah, so, um, that's gonna be a great uh experience for those eight people and hopefully you guys. Something you can do, you know it goes well and you can do it, you know, on a more consistent basis yeah, that's the plan awesome.
Speaker 1:Well am Well Amanda. This was great. I'm so happy we were able to make this happen. We persevered and it was worth it. Really appreciate your energy and your insight. Great conversation, Any final thoughts, and then you can let people know how to find you, your website and LinkedIn and any of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Sure Final thoughts, I think, just the idea that many introverts view their introversion as a glass ceiling in their careers. They think that the only way to get into those senior leadership roles is to be more extroverted. And my belief is really that the key for introverts thriving in the workplace as a whole, or in leadership roles as well, is to embrace their innate strengths as an introvert and also their authentic leadership style.
Speaker 1:No, I love that and I think, even just going back to the fact that it's more about energy and not shyness, I think, is even though that's simple in context, but I think it's much more, it's much deeper than that when you start to look at it through that lens. So hopefully that's helpful too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and yeah, as for where to find me on, linkedin is where I tend to post the most, and so you can just search Amanda Kwok and my. My company's called Quiet Leader Co, or my website, quietleaderco.
Speaker 1:Nice, awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and insight. I really enjoyed it, thank you.
Speaker 2:You too. Thanks so much, David.