The Real You
1:1 Long-Form Interviews with Interesting People Doing Amazing Things
In-depth discussion of people's journeys to tap into their full potential and find ways to be the truest version of themselves.
The Real You
EP 23: Reimagining Success: Embrace Change and Tackle Burnout with Nicole Greene
In this episode of The Real You Podcast, I sit down with Nicole Greene.
She's a personal and business growth consultant with a fascinating career journey.
We explore:
- How Nicole uses LinkedIn for personal and professional growth.
- Her thoughtful decision-making process, blending analysis with trusted advice.
- The power of storytelling to build genuine professional connections.
Nicole shares candid stories and practical tips for:
- Supporting founders during tough times.
- Transforming challenges into growth opportunities.
- Aligning work with personal values, even if it means making bold career pivots like moving from the Department of Defense to artisan chocolates!
| ➜ If you’ve ever felt stuck in a role that doesn’t fit or wondered how to craft a more authentic personal narrative, Nicole’s insights will inspire you to take the leap toward greater fulfillment.
Join us to uncover lessons on creativity, resilience, and the joy of building meaningful connections.
Nicole's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timebydesign/
Nicole's Website: https://www.nicolejgreene.com/
David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/
David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/
Welcome to the Real you Podcast. I'm your host, david Young, and this is episode number 23. This podcast discusses tapping into your potential and finding ways to be the truest version of yourself. Today, I'm joined by Nicole Green, a personal and business growth consultant, personal development advocate and a fellow data nerd, which I love. We will discuss her journey, how she uses LinkedIn, the joys and frustrations of finding your path as a solopreneur, and how she supports founders and business owners at their most vulnerable times. So, nicole, sorry for the long delay in having you on the show, thanks for your patience and thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:I was starting to take it personally. I'm pretty sure I forced myself onto the show, possibly by shaming you.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're on the list. I just didn't get to your invite soon enough.
Speaker 2:But here we are.
Speaker 1:Yes, better late than never. Before the year was out, we'll have your episode. The good part is, your episode will be live faster. If I'd have had you on in April, your episode wouldn't have come out until August. This turnaround is going to be like six weeks, so that's your payoff.
Speaker 2:You get to hear it soon. Sounds like you've streamlined your operations.
Speaker 1:It is a little smoother now.
Speaker 2:It. It is a little smoother now.
Speaker 1:It's taken a little bit of practice, but yeah, so thanks for coming on. I see you're rocking the blue Yeti mic. I may invest in that myself. This is the Samson Q2U which I've used the whole time, but I feel like I need something better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's iconic apparently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:You recognized it off of a still shot on LinkedIn. I was like I think that's what I'm using. I tend to hijack other people's diligence. You know I'm a really decisive person and I kind of go with okay, this person I trust, right, they have, and then I don't do any diligence beyond what do you do, and I'll do that.
Speaker 2:Okay because there's so many other areas where I go deep and like do all of my analytics and the cost benefit and the Gantt chart, et cetera, that it's like, if I can outsource to somebody, I do that. A lot with parenting too, right, it's like there are certain parents that I know are doing all of the legwork. I'm like you tell me where you're sending your kid. I'm going to go there, I like it. That's very resourceful.
Speaker 1:I like it. That's very resourceful. It's great. Time management, which is your thing, time by design. So that makes a lot of sense. I'm the opposite. I have a spreadsheet with all the microphones and the pros and cons and the cost and which one's which and which sounds better, and yeah. So I'll decide in like six months and then I'll make the wrong choice and that's usually what happens.
Speaker 2:Beat yourself up over it for another 18 months and then start the cycle all over again yeah, you can't see it.
Speaker 1:So the the divider. Here there's a well, it's a treadmill now but uh, there was a spin bike. So when covid hit, we decided, you know, we were going to cancel the gym membership and we wanted something. And my wife's not a runner and but she was like I'll use a spin bike and so I should. I wanted to just buy a peloton, that's's all I wanted. I didn't want to research it, I just wanted to spend the money, get it and be done. Right, it was like 25 or $2,600. Like at the time, she was like it's so expensive, like I don't know if we're going to use it. So I went down the rabbit hole of like you know, okay, let's.
Speaker 1:I think it was called MyFitness or Mixed Fitness, like MYX, brand new. They'd only been in business for like six months. It was like a Peloton knockoff. It was like $850. Basically, did the same thing. I was like all right, try it. It took me three months. They couldn't get it to work for three months and I was like this is why you spend the $2,500. I guarantee you a Peloton would have worked in 30. Yeah, um, so yeah there it is.
Speaker 2:So that's how you've that's like your narrative, to validate the extensive, the depth of your analysis on the microphone. Okay, exactly, I'm gonna let that go. You can have that so yeah, um, anyway.
Speaker 1:So we met on linkedin, like all of my guests, um how, how long you've been on, how long you've been active, you, how do you use it?
Speaker 2:So I started in January of this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I had previously been on super passively. I think I had not posted at all other than, like you know, updating my career as I made the squiggly twists and turns that you're aware of. Maybe in December I was aware that I wanted to start using LinkedIn, so I dabbled. And then in January I was aware that I wanted to start using LinkedIn, so I dabbled. And then in January I did a course that was basically a force function for me to start writing and posting on a daily basis. So I did that and I've basically stuck with it. Over the summer I shifted from five days a week. At one point I was doing six days a week and now I'm at three, sometimes four, and that feels like the right amount for me and what I kind of am looking for on LinkedIn and what I get back from LinkedIn. So I've made that adjustment. But yeah, that's kind of been the journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I do five times a week. Now Three times a week is my favorite. I've probably done more three times a week than any other cadence. If I looked at it month over month, it's what feels the best in terms of just bandwidth and feeling creative and writing. But the other thing I've learned is that when you're trying to use it for business and client acquisition, that three times is just not enough.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, the algorithm hates me. My impressions are crazy low, you know, but it's that's not the, that's not what, where it's at for me anyway. So I've just kind of learned to not worry about that. But yeah, if I was leveraging LinkedIn for business development more, or my my offering ladder to business development on LinkedIn more directly, then that would be a problem, right, because every Tuesday I take the hit from the fact that I haven't posted since the prior Thursday and I'm like, okay, but that's the choice, because you know I love LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:First, just to say like, the relationships that I've built here are unbelievable to me. You know, I didn't come from really robustly using other social media platforms. I had been passively on other platforms, but I left Facebook a long time ago and then I was on Instagram, but mostly on the receiving end or just kind of keeping up with other people or my own interests. And when I started connecting on LinkedIn and then bridging from the LinkedIn connection to an actual conversation, I was like holy crap, these are real relationships and I absolutely adore and deeply respect so many people that I've met on here and so it's really, it's given back so much in that capacity, you know.
Speaker 2:But there have definitely been times where I'm like for the amount of time I'm spending on this, like from a revenue generative perspective. This is not like returning what I would need it to to justify the amount of time. And you know me like so intentional about how I spend my time. You know, building a business, I've got two little boys, so it's like every every minute I try to allocate with intention and so that math wasn't working for me at a higher volume of posting. So you know it's like with everything you you have to make the trade-off that makes the most sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I hear you there and totally echo the people that I've met, like yourself and many others. Just, um, I feel like we've been friends for like ever, like you've known somebody for like six months, um, and you know, I've had zoom calls, people all over the world and just a lot of smart, just high achieving, like high energy, creative, I don't know. It's just it's really like we're kind of renewed my like faith in humanity. Um, it's probably too grand of a statement, but you understand my point. Like, yeah, you meet enough people and you're like, okay, they're all like working towards something and doing something, and then you see that enough, and you're like, all right, like there's good people and they're smart people and trying to help people and like all these kind of things, and so you get that reinforcement and so there's a lot of bad going on. You can find the bad if you want to look for it, worldwide, nationally, whatever but like there's also good too if you spend time, you know, looking for that.
Speaker 1:So I totally echo you there. So, yeah, so talk about. So I know we don't have to go through your entire work history, but you do have a very, very eclectic history. So you started in the Department of Defense and then you went, I believe, to Chocolate Truffles and then you went to a couple of I think was it medical startups or finance startups, something like that.
Speaker 2:I did CPG directly after Consumer packaged goods product goods.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, yeah. So talk about kind of DOD into chocolate. I think that's the most fascinating jump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, by the way, every time I hear that played back to me I'm like, honestly, I did that, what was that? But I did so. I started my career, kind of coming out of my first run of grad school, and was a presidential management fellow, which is an executive branch fellowship that places you anywhere in the executive branch of the US government. Highly recommend for anyone who is in that situation of being in grad school or who are more relevant to our demographic, who have kids that are coming out of college and going into grad school. It was amazing, but I went through the cycle of application and being evaluated and you end up, you know, interviewing in all of these different agencies. I, for me, it narrowed down to three positions. It was like a position in the Department of Commerce, department of Education and Department of Defense. I had no business taking a position in the.
Speaker 2:Department of Defense, which is, you know, you know me well enough to know that's probably why I did it. At the time I was like, well, you know, I'm 21. I'm like I have all of these established bona fides in Department of Education that like I can always go back there for, like, doing public education reform work, worked for the mayor of Chicago, and I was like in that space and really passionate about it. But so I saw this as like, oh, let me do this for two years and then I can always go back.
Speaker 2:You know, one thing that's interesting about life is that we can never quite account for path dependency right and how that shows up. In my case it showed up to an extreme because three weeks into my fellowship, 9-11 happened and that was such a paradigm shift. I mean not to reduce it to that, but in addition to all, how my role evolved and how culture and sentiment evolved within the defense department and literally, you know, the two years of my fellowship became nine years. Thankfully I had I posted recently that my first job, so my first real job, because again I was 20, just had turned 22 at this point. My fellowship position was operations, research and systems analytics.
Speaker 1:Sounds perfect for you which?
Speaker 2:could not. What'd you say?
Speaker 1:Sounds perfect for you.
Speaker 2:I mean right, like it could not have been a worse fit. And, thankfully, like pretty early on, somebody kind of who ended up becoming my mentor within the fellowship program was like that is absolutely not where you should be, you know I right. So I ended up shifting into a defense intelligence position. I'm kind of following that path. But toward the end, I think you know there were a lot of things going on. I am a super creative person. I think you know there were a lot of things going on.
Speaker 2:I am a super creative person and that sort of part of me was so suppressed by the experience of working within that field and there were other factors as well and I decided, you know, I really felt like I needed to save myself and just get out and do something very, very different. At the time I was still kind of in this proving pattern, this external validation seeking behavior that really made it hard for me to make an informed and intentional, proactive decision about what would be best or what would fulfill me, because I wasn't even asking that question, I wouldn't have even recognized the validity of that question at the time. So I made a super reactive decision and that decision ultimately, in a very strange way led me to creating building scaling, an artisan chocolates company.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:There's a lot that I'm leaving out, but that's kind of the architecture. The creativity was going to come out, and it came out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go. There's a lot that I'm leaving out, but that's kind of the architecture. The creativity was going to come out and it came out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a pattern of overcorrecting.
Speaker 2:There's several points in my and we can just bring my dad on if you want to just really lean into that. But you know again, like I think when you're not in a position or you're not allowing yourself to make intentional decisions, right, that tendency to sort of overcorrect and pendulum swing is there At least it has been for me on several different occasions. I can point to pivot in my own sort of approach to my business. Now I recognize that there was an overcorrection in the origin of where I am today and the pendulum is swinging like less wildly now because I have brought a ton of intentionality to it. But it's been an interesting exercise in realizing that that dynamic still exists for me and it's like an opportunity to, you know, go deeper into that understanding.
Speaker 2:I feel like personal growth is like that right, you kind of you feel like you've dealt with something and then it just like shows up in a different version, you know, sometime later and you're like, oh, that's the same thing. I'm like I'm closer to it. Right, it's a different version, but it definitely has shared DNA. With that problem I thought I'd already wrapped a bow around.
Speaker 1:It doesn't end.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a lifelong odyssey and process and like you said even when you think you have it figured out and maybe you do but sometimes it's a gap of time where it presents itself in a slightly different situation, so it's not blatantly obvious and then can fall into like old patterns and traps, because they don't. They don't die easily, um, but I think as we get older, like you said, you recognize them a little more quickly and then you can kind of get out before you feel like you've really like you've really fucked it up. Um, just, I want to go back just quickly to the DOD work, the heaviness of that role, like the seriousness and the heaviness of that role, especially post 9-11. Did you have a hard time like processing the work and then like living your life without just having that on your mind like all the time?
Speaker 2:I mean no, because my life was my work right. I had internalized this limiting belief from much earlier on that I wasn't smarter than anyone. I just worked harder, and so my way of being enough was through work, and so my way of proving myself was through work. My way of being enough was through work, and so my way of proving myself was through work. My way of being okay with myself, accepting myself, showing up in the world all of that was really through work. So I didn't experience that tension that you would expect, because it was so outsized in my life at the time that I didn't really feel that tension. I mean, I felt like a meaningful disconnect in terms of the work not laddering to a deeper purpose purpose and it's definitely not a day to get into politics but I wasn't super aligned with what.
Speaker 2:I felt complicit in at the time, and so that really affected me and is ultimately why I ended up deciding to get out. It was like, on a personal level, the feeling suppressed creatively, but also like my soul felt like it was dying a little bit, but never in a way that interfered with, like my ability and willingness to perform. You know what I mean Because, like, for me, that was always like the thing was like, oh, I'm going to perform the crap out of this job and then, like that other stuff took a lot longer to bubble up for me, because I was, you know, getting that validation that I was looking for, that I desperately needed in order to feel whole and feel good, and so I just kind of kept going on that path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I totally figure there. I've done not quite to that extreme, but I've definitely stayed on pass and in jobs for just way longer, um, almost like immediately knowing it's not a fit, but being like, well, this is like what I'm supposed to be doing, or like this was a promotion. So I should just, you know, be thankful and happy that I'm here and like I'll grid it out and I'll figure it out. Maybe it won't be so bad in six months, right? And then it just gets worse and worse, and then you just get deeper and deeper into a hole that you never really wanted to be in. And then you're like, what the fuck do I do now?
Speaker 2:So do you identify as a pendulum swinger as well, or what is the dynamic? Is there a shape to your pattern?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I've looked at it in that context, but what I usually did is got to a certain point and then I would just quit. So I was not very good at planning an escape. I just dealt with it, dealt with it, dealt with it, and then it got to the point where I couldn't deal with it anymore, and then I would quit, and then I would, and then I would repeat that pattern. So then I would go down a different path, kind of run that one out, quit, started over.
Speaker 2:I've done that three or four times, um is it a scorched earth quitting or just a save myself?
Speaker 1:That's a good question, I think most of them. I have to think about this. Let's see, the first one was kind of a hybrid.
Speaker 1:We'll say a little bit of both. They were probably happy to get the call that I was quitting. The second one was more peaceful. Third, well, there was a shorter one in between. That was really bad. That didn't go well. So, yeah, I would say a mix of both. But I started to recognize it as I looked back on it, through therapy sessions and whatnot, I was like, oh yeah, I kind of do that. So now I try to be a little more foresight, to be like let's just not get it to the point where, like today, I'm quitting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right, you're like, yeah, operating here is not a good place to be.
Speaker 1:You can only do so much of that and you're like all right, this is something that's going to give and it's going to be me. So I'm out. Yeah, I will say quitting feels good. You see a lot of that like don't quit and I'm, for the most part, I align with not quitting, but there's sometimes that quitting is A the right decision and, b it feels really good. So I would like to say that for the record.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more and I've done. I have quit with a plan and quit without a plan, and both feel good in different ways. I would, you know, I don't know that I would endorse them both for everyone to the same degree of, you know, confidence. But, yes, right, it was. Ultimately we're all, I hope, all finding our path right. How some people, you know it's a straighter line. Mine has been all over the place, but I definitely feel like I have finally converged on the thing that feels like it's right and it's beautiful. And yeah, you know, had I not had unresolved trauma that I suppressed for 30 years, like maybe my path would have been straighter, right, I mean, there's so many other variables that led to it being as squiggly as it was. But here, you know, I'm like I, I feel the difference Right and I think that's why, yeah.
Speaker 1:And the other thing too is, um, it's hard to. I think it's hard to keep this in mind, but if it happens sooner or when you're younger or in a more linear fashion, A, I don't think you have the appreciation for it, and then B, I think you also would look to get out because you'd be like all right, yeah, this is good, but I'm like only 31. And like what's next? Right, but when you have what happens a little later in life, and I think especially once you have kids and you have struggled, and then you kind of find it, I think it feels better and then you just you have, you have more presence and you have more appreciation. So it does suck to go through like many, many years of like. What you feel like is beating your head against the wall. But there is, I think, some reward on the other side, where you're like, oh, like I don't hate getting up today, Like, oh, I sit down at my computer and I look forward to this, Like this is a foreign feeling. I'm really going to embrace this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I hear you 100%. I think I for a lot of that time did not identify as dreading the work or not feeling fulfilled by it, but that's because I was bought into the like social, cultural definition of what fulfillment was Right.
Speaker 1:So you know, I was like sorry, money title promotions, exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, and so right, because I was getting all of that. I was really in and I in so many different ways, including in a job that ultimately I fully burnt out in and I really loved the work, totally missing the fact that ultimately I it was not fulfilling me at all and in that particular situation it was actually gutting me. I was becoming a shell of a person. But all the validation right. I love that you made fun of me a little bit for employee of the year I did that was that.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, I was employee of the year and like totally just got it Buy into that.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, I was giving a hard time about it, but only because I did the same thing Like I was, we were after the same thing I won. It wasn't employee of the year, but it was like they called it a special achievement award and I was so proud of that for so long I put it on my resume. I think I even had on LinkedIn for a while, like many, many years later it was like hey, in 2001, like this guy right, and I think about it now. I was like nobody gave a flying rat's ass like no one.
Speaker 1:But that's what you did, right, you? You you tried to get. If they had those things, you were trying to get them. If you got them, like you got an award, you typically got some money, you got some recognition, right, and then you're like, let's do it again, and so when I saw that on your thing. It just reminded me of my own, like same, so I just thought it was funny.
Speaker 2:Was it an Italian leg lamp? Your special award.
Speaker 1:No, it was just like a plaque and I got $3,500. Okay, which was like quite a bit of money, it's 2001. Like I thought that was a pretty good bonus, um and uh, but yeah, it was like it felt great. I didn't even like that job, but like I liked getting that award and I sure as fuck like putting it on my, on my resume. I feel you, uh, so yeah, so, was it burnout then that? Was it the lack of creativity, or like suppressed creativity and burnout where you finally were like I'm out of the department of defense? Or did it just get to the point where you're like I just can't do it anymore?
Speaker 2:I don't I good question. I don't identify as as having burnt out in the department of defense. It was more of again like a self-preservation move. But looking back and from what I understand now about survival mode, right, I think we associate survival mode with the overwhelm variants. Right, because we're like, oh, we have so much to do, desperately trying to get it all done. But there's like underwhelm is the other type of survival mode and I think it's much less kind of appreciated, recognized and talked about, but equally present in those who experience it. And I think it's much less kind of appreciated, recognized and talked about, but equally present in those who experience it.
Speaker 2:And I definitely dealt with burnout from underwhelm in that role. You know I was again. I was feeling spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually detached from the work, from the work, you know, not just because of what was going on in the world, but also I mean, holy crap, like what a bureaucracy, right, just like so slow moving. I felt like I was having the same conversations with the same people over and over again. You know you go to these annual conferences and you're looking around and it's the same people and we're talking about the same things. I'm like what? So that wasn't for me at all and that I now recognize as being symptomatic and symbolic of systemic underwhelm, which is a form of survival mode and a form of burnout. I didn't feel what we associate with burnout at the time, because I wasn't feeling overwhelmed. I was very much underwhelmed.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's how that went.
Speaker 1:So once you got into the chocolate and the truffle and the business, you said that was like a startup. You kind of helped scale that Did you immediately feel better, like there was a pressure release, and you kind of were like, oh, this is so different and this is really good.
Speaker 2:That would be nice. No, it was my own company. What actually happened was I decided I was going to take a year off. Six weeks into the year I realized I am not a person that takes a year off. And again, I was talking to maybe you know on LinkedIn Laura Krauss. She just published a book called Layoff Cooties.
Speaker 1:It like came out yesterday. I don't know her, but I know who you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Okay and I was speaking to her community this week about really the important. We get very few opportunities in our lives as adults to have a break from routine within which we can really reevaluate our defaults and make intentional choices at a higher level that normally, like you know, we're just sort of so assigned to the things we need to do to get through the day and take care of all the stuff. That was a point where you know, had I been in a healthier place from a like trauma recovery and just personal wellness perspective, I would have taken the time and approached it in a very different way. But at the time I was totally defining myself based on my ability to perform tasks and like get shit done right.
Speaker 2:It was like, oh well, I can do that, like I'm the best at that. And then, when that didn't exist for me, I didn't have that context. I really didn't understand who I was and couldn't sit with myself in that lack of productivity or lack of context for it. So I was like, you know, here's the pendulum swing. I can't believe I'm talking about this, but it was like, okay, well, I just want to do something that's going to make people happy. Right Cause I've been like immersed in war on the periphery for 10 years, almost 10 years, and you know, I was like, oh, I was like floral school or pastry school, like, literally, this was my thought process Like well, I really love flowers, I really love chocolate, like maybe I'll do wedding cakes Because, right again, my creativity, like the creative side, was just like trying to fly out of my body.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going to do special event cakes and I'm a brilliant planner, right, my strength is strategic, operational and tactical. I see these sort of multidimensional polyhedrons of things as I work on projects. So I'm like I don't plan the crap out of a huge event and make the cake for it. And so, like I go to pastry school, the first midterm exam there's midterms in pastry school. The first midterm exam is like a cake, like it's a one layer, maybe like eight inch cake. Mine was an absolute catastrophe. Like I can't. I wish I had a picture of it to send you to put in the show notes. It's just like capture. How bad this thing was.
Speaker 2:And I knew immediately well, like that plan is definitely not going to materialize. But I actually fell in love with working with chocolate In the context of the program. It's like such a demanding medium that there's like such a technical rigor to it. I love a challenge. I'm like this chocolate is kicking my ass but I'm going to win. So you know, I really dedicated myself to that and coming out of pastry school, you know, I mean, look looking back, all the markers of like you really need to go into therapy were there. I just I didn't see them and again I was like performing at such a high level. My husband makes fun of this as the other, the, the analogy to the employee of the year of the year award. My husband loves to tell people I graduated from pastry school with honors because it's like so ridiculous, but true.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, it was like um, I didn't really want to do anything overly with my brain at that point. I was just like so lost right.
Speaker 2:Like I didn't know it at the time, but I was so lost and so disconnected from my value and how I can create value for other people which is, like I think, partly how I know I'm doing the right thing now is I'm so dialed into my superpower and how I create meaningful value for other people that I serve and that feels so great. You know, it was at the times like I'm just. Basically I left pastry school and started running a bakery for the holidays that year. I put together like a Martha Stewart extravaganza, like packaged box of goodness, and one of my friends gave it to an aunt or second cut business. And one of my friends gave it to an aunt or second cut, like some familial connection, who owned a candy store in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2:And the woman called me a couple of weeks later and placed an order for like five dozen of these. And you know, dah, dah, dah and I was like, oh, okay, like no intention of, I had not contemplated as a business, I had no intention of selling, no packaging, no, nothing. But you know I, that's who I am. I'm like, okay, yes, great, I'll take your order.
Speaker 2:Let me figure it out. And then I was off and running real decision about what to do next Cause like obviously it wasn't the bakery job. I was like let me go all in on this business that I had started to build and that was sort of the origin story. The reason it became a thing was I had the first confectionery product that incorporated craft beer and it was at the beginning of the craft beer movement. And you know, one of the things that we connect on, you introduced us as mutual data nerds and I love that. That's like your angle. Your post today, I think, was your October roll up and I love those and how thoughtful you are about it.
Speaker 2:Like well, I can read Signal. I was in the Intel community. So like, initially the beer and pretzel truffle was one product among a sea of others and it was like by far getting the most orders, the most press, the most interest, the most inquiries. So I ended up building a whole product line around it, Ended up in the New York Times, in Food and Wine Magazine and ultimately on the front page of the Wall Street Journal nine days before Christmas, which was its own form of shit show.
Speaker 1:Do you have all?
Speaker 2:those framed. I don't you would think I would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, were you hoping I would like turn the camera and show you my wall.
Speaker 2:No, I dug them out because my kids were interested. For years they didn't know that I even did this. Yeah, and I did take them out recently, like I had an album kind of buried in a box, um. So I have looked at them and I think I posted even at one point some pictures of of that press. But, um, yeah, that's basically what happened.
Speaker 2:Is I read the signal smart enough to follow that path and ended up kind of succeeding at the expense of myself and a little bit by accident. You know, I always felt you asked if that felt better to me I always felt with that business that I never quite caught up to myself and I was like I knew at a strategic level what I needed to do but my operating systems weren't in place, I think partly because I was so reluctant to give up the kitchen role. The reason I was there? Because, again, I was trying to avoid using my brain at that point.
Speaker 2:I loved being in the kitchen and it's again that classic you can't work on your business and work in your business at the same time. Well, for the 20 hours a day that I was running the kitchen team, I was working very much in and not on, and it took me a while to figure that out and finally hire somebody to take over that role. Once I did. It was a very different story, but it was years in and I really started to hate the business Again. I'm sorry looping, but it's not what I should have been doing in the first place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just got on the path and you just kept doing it.
Speaker 2:Right, because I'm very good at excelling on a path. I'm great at that. The key is, you got to pick the right path. That's what took me seven iterations to finally get to. It's like, oh, this is the right path. Now my excellence and high performance is well-placed, but up until then I was just like performing, performing, performing to no end. And to what end.
Speaker 1:Did you call everybody chef in the kitchen like they do on the Bear?
Speaker 2:No, but I love the Bear. Do you watch the Bear?
Speaker 1:We watched the first season. I didn't really like it, so I didn't want to watch it anymore.
Speaker 2:My wife is disappointed.
Speaker 1:The show makes me a little nervous. It's so, yeah, like all the time those kitchen scenes and I'm just like this isn't entertaining to me. This just makes me nervous.
Speaker 2:I hear you.
Speaker 1:They're just yelling at each other all the time. And then everyone is chef and I don't really like that and I mean I understand it, but it bothers me. And then he and the cousin. Although the cousin has some pretty funny lines I do like his sense of humor and some of the stuff that he says I did enjoy that, but just overall the show just made me nervous and I was like I didn't look forward to watching it. It was like I was gritting, I was like grinding out the episodes and I was like I think I don't want to watch this anymore. Um, but yeah, I know it's great, it's won a lot of awards and people love it. I think it's three seasons and they're getting ready to do another one maybe. Um, but as you were talking about, like, running the kitchen, I was just picturing nicole like yeah, it's my chocolate ready. Chef, yes, chef, five minutes. Chef Upstairs chef 75 chickens, 45 lambs or whatever.
Speaker 2:Every second counts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly 10 minutes to lunch, 10 minutes to lunch we got to line out the door.
Speaker 2:What do we?
Speaker 1:got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do say, the carryover from kitchen culture that I say and one of my clients actually called me out for this the other day is, I say, heard?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So, like right, the chef calls in the order. Okay, heard heard, chef heard. And so I say I still say heard instead of. I hear you in a way that apparently stood out.
Speaker 1:That's okay. No, it's, it's stuck with you. Um, so yeah, so okay. So you did so you're those two, and then you said seven. So obviously the process repeated a few more times.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's literally seven. I hope it's not.
Speaker 1:So then, at what point did you find therapy? And then was that kind of the gateway then to eventually finding what you're doing now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. So after I sold the product line and closed the business, I had Jonah, my oldest, and started B-School when he was 10 weeks old.
Speaker 1:That sounds like something you would do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. Thank you for noticing. I then had the youngest in the middle of the program because you know why not, because you know why not. And coming out of that, coming out of my MBA, I felt like ready to join a team again. I'd been doing consulting for other small businesses, initially artisan foods, but, you know, through referral and curiosity, branching into other industries, and I really missed being part of a team.
Speaker 2:I was like ready to grow something and I took a position. It was initially a business development and strategy position, but saw an opportunity to kind of pivot the business model and develop an in-house concept to commercialization product development engine that hadn't existed and so I ended up kind of running that. Business development was like again, that's probably as appropriate for me as operations, research and systems analytics. You know, it's just like not the fit. I have so much respect for people who do that well. It's just like not my personality and not where I excel. So I ended up kind of creating this path for myself and within that context really burnt out. It was a culture that celebrated high performance and a culture in which there was no sort of benefit of the doubt, right, there was no sort of held credibility. So every new thing, you had to prove yourself right. And I was like oh, I can prove myself all day long, like this is perfect for me.
Speaker 1:I'll keep volunteering. Yeah, I'll keep doing that.
Speaker 2:Right, prove myself right off the cliff, employee of the year, project of the year, right, all the things. And yeah, I was completely burned out. The boys were four and six. At that point I felt like every kind of classic trait. Now we're talking burnout from overwhelm, right, just desperately trying to get everything done that I felt like I needed to get done to continue to prove myself, really making myself so small in that process, like every other thing, escaped just left my life while I was desperately trying to perform in this role and you know, I was showing up for my kids in a physical capacity, but emotionally I wasn't there. Mentally I wasn't fully there.
Speaker 2:And thankfully, at the beginning of COVID I got an offer to co-found a health technology company and it could have been anything, because at that point I knew that I needed to get out of my situation and I had no idea how to do it. A feature of burnout from overwhelm is learned helplessness. You stop believing in your own agency to get yourself out of the situation. So I would be crying to my husband. I don't even know how I could possibly find another job. I don't have time to update my resume, just sort of so deep in that, and so this opportunity came along. I took it and I knew, going in, that like I had to make meaningful changes in order to and I was ready, like at that point, like you know, the pattern recognition finally turned inward. I'm like there's something going on here Like why was I so vulnerable to that culture?
Speaker 2:right, and why, does this keep happening? Right, what's going on? And so when I started that new role, I started doing therapy and figured out very early on, I think two things really unlocked massive growth and space creation for me that allowed me to do the deeper work, which was one I realized I was consciously choosing. So, yes, that culture was toxic for me, but also there were things about me that made me so vulnerable right, because other people were there, like they're not caring, that they don't have the benefit of the doubt. They're showing up and doing their job and going home right.
Speaker 2:For me, like for people, not to give me the benefit of the doubt and know how good I was and know how on top of it I was and how on time with everything I was going to be, and for that to be recognized as core to my identity. I really couldn't hold space for that. I was constantly proving that it was true. When I realized that I was consciously choosing to show up in that way, I also realized I could consciously choose to show up a different way. So, like, my whole approach is around head-led healing right, because it was really driven by a series of choices and intentional changes that I made that then created space for the deeper work around emotional awareness and trauma recovery and things like that. And then the second thing was to kind of work with dualities Because again at the time and my burnout and all of this whole thing was rooted in a childhood trauma that I had never dealt with. So that's not true for everyone. For me, because that was true, I had to go there and I was totally unequipped to do so, and so instead of like confronting the tough emotions head on, I worked with a therapist who helped me kind of work the opposite dial. So, if you think about right, what's the opposite of shame and shame was a big one for me it's pride. And so, instead of like going deep on understanding how shame shows up in my life and like working on the shame which is holy crap, like that's a lot it took me a while to get there I worked on pride and making like intentional choices and adjustments to recognize things that I felt proud of, even though, like at the beginning, they were microscopic, you know, kind of stacking those wins and really by dialing up pride, which I was able to do intentionally through discipline and practice, the shame dialed down naturally in opposition and that created the space. So, yes, so that's kind of how it happened and that at a certain point, two years in, I really felt this tension between the job and the work, like the work on myself, and I was like I got to get out of here.
Speaker 2:I talked to a lot of women who have this experience of having been through burnout and then seeing the signs of secondary burnout, and I'm actually doing sort of my version of research around this. It's something that I want to write about in the future how women in particular experience second wave burnout and how they protect themselves from it and what that looks like and what it feels like For me. I was like I got to get the hell out of here, like I'm not going through that again. I knew I wasn't ready to like ride it out and like protect myself.
Speaker 2:Like the new infrastructure, right, the new operating system was still like pretty fragile and I saw what the like, the, the effect of the work that I was doing on my kids, right, especially the little one. His posture changed when I started showing up in the world in a bigger way. He started showing up in the world in a bigger way. It was so powerful. So for me, I was like I don't know how to reconcile this in a way that doesn't feel like it's going to break me again. So I got to go and that's ultimately. Then I gave myself a hiatus within which to do the deeper work in a much more focused capacity.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that story and the therapy and recognizing it, you recognized it so much sooner. I think that really shows the growth right Ten years before that you probably would have grinded that out for another five years.
Speaker 2:Well cycle time is kind of my thing, right, and that's that's a perfect example of it. It's like, okay, we're going to slip off the path, but how quickly do we recognize and get ourselves back onto it? That's as a measure of growth. It's a concept from lean manufacturing and it's all about exactly what you just said. And so do you recognize cycle time improvement as an indicator of growth as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I started to see it a little bit sooner, sometimes to a detriment, but because I maybe bail like a little too quickly because it's not going to work, and then it's like, well, maybe you should just give it more time. But I'm leery to do the whole, stay in something for a really long time and then be like I told you it wasn't going to work because I don't want to do that either. So it's a fine line. But, yes, seeing it sooner, recognizing it, trying to take steps earlier to avoid blowups and where it just gets really sideways, and then, as you know it right, it started, like with your kids and stuff, like it starts to affect everybody around you um, it is not, it is not singular to just you.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, affects marriages and relationships and kids and like all of it.
Speaker 1:Because you, when you're, when you're that unhappy and you're that miserable, it's impossible to uh, turn that off and then just become this like bright, energetic, loving, fun, like, yeah, spouse and parent like you.
Speaker 1:Just, I don't think very many people can do that. So, yeah, again, combination of age, a lot of therapy, um, a lot of books, and then you just start to see it like a little sooner. But it's a little different now because this whole online thing has been so great for me, because I don't have a boss, I don't have to sit on endless zoom meetings and I don't have to listen to company all hands and like all that kind of stuff, so like I'm in a much better. I'm in a much better place not as good a place financially, because it's harder to make money and you don't have the guaranteed money but, unlike every other box, it's significantly better. So, um, that's what I try to focus on. At what point, then, did you start thinking like kind of entrepreneurship and like your own thing and then trying to help others, uh, with like all of your lived experience?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I got to the, I gave myself the 18 months to like not really worry about it and I I was in that sort of period. I was doing some consulting work, super selectively and doing the like, mostly really doing the work on myself, as I was wrapping up that period right and I'm like, okay, I did a great job of not holding myself accountable to bringing in income or worrying about that, which is, I think, pretty remarkable. We're a single income family and so that's all always been on me, so for me to really protect the time for myself was super significant a ton of sacrifice shout out to my husband and to myself, because I valued myself enough to know that this is where I needed to be, this is where I needed to be focused. And then I had this moment where and this is the, I was going to say the final swing. How?
Speaker 1:much. You burst aside the mini pendulum.
Speaker 2:This is the mini pendulum exactly. So I had this moment where I was like, oh, like the, where all of this comes together, like the way to make sense of this crazy life and squiggly path. And everything that I've been through is to help other women avoid, avoid this right, avoid making themselves small in pursuit of success, avoid defining their value externally and and sort of pursuing that path at the expense of themselves, and particularly women who are multi-role like, who identify as high performers right, and have multiple, non-negotiable roles. So you know the moms who are executives or who are founders, the women who are caretakers, and also, you know, in jobs that they really care a lot about like it's impossible and we are following this sort of um that we, we, we sort of buy into this idea of work-life balance, which is elusive and only makes us feel like we're failing in all directions at all times and we totally fragment. And I that had been my experience. So I was like I'm going to come and help these people. I got this and I love it. I love that work and I know it's so helpful and so impactful for women to hear me tell my story and be as direct as I am and kind of own, the fact that the success that I was able to achieve didn't actually fulfill me, and what that was at the expense of, and what I understand now and how I journeyed back Like how do you get out of burnout in a way that's sustainable?
Speaker 2:But the overcorrection was the way I got to oh, I'm going to coach and I'm going to coach these high performing women is several of my consulting relationships had evolved into coaching relationships and I loved the coaching part. I loved it and I'm like, oh, I'm going to do that, Like I'm going to isolate that piece of it Right. What I didn't see at the time was how much my experience of it and my ability to do it, my efficacy, was based on the business context in which the relationship was formed. So basically, I was coming in as a business, as an ops consultant, early stage ops and by virtue of that engagement was forming coaching relationships with the executive right, the founder or the owner or a member of the you know kind of understanding and seeing the intersectionality of the strategic, operational and tactical and helping businesses set up to scale and make a lot of money. I love doing that. I'm not, you know, I have no sort of qualms about admitting that, that that revenue growth is a metric I really care about. It makes me feel good to make things that make a lot of money. I get fed by that energetically and it's also like that created a softer slope.
Speaker 2:I'm not quick to like form relationships.
Speaker 2:I don't identify as somebody who's like particularly a people person.
Speaker 2:Right, I love people, but I'm a slower build and that build was happening in the context of a consulting relationship that I was very confident and comfortable in With coaching. If you go straight to coaching like you're getting on the call with people and expected to like deliver value right away, particularly in this culture, people want results so fast and I was like, well, I'm not actually great at that ramp up, that quick ramp up, and I don't necessarily love these conversations. I missed the business part of it and I had kind of designed my life so that I was doing the business-focused work in a pro bono capacity. So last year I became an entrepreneur in residence at the University of Miami and I was also I'm a mentor in the venture mentoring team, which is pro bono mentoring for startups and small businesses, and I was like, okay, I'm putting my brain to work in that capacity and I'm going to focus on coaching and I separated the two things and it really wasn't until six months in where I was like, nope, it's the combination.
Speaker 1:You got to be together.
Speaker 2:It's got to be together. That's what lights me up, and I literally can't have a single conversation with anyone without trying to insinuate myself into their business model.
Speaker 1:What do you do? Let me help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, I mean, we've had conversations like that. I'm just like I go straight into it and so now it finally feels like, oh, I've brought it all together and what's really special about it is I'm focused on working with founders and small business owners who are at the point where bringing in the customers is no longer the problem. Right, the growth is happening. The problem is, the early systems and culture are fragmenting under the pressure of that growth. Right, because typically, like your, early systems and culture are built around familiarity and intimacy and just like this is how we work together.
Speaker 2:And then at a certain point, it's like everybody's overstretched, everyone's burnt out, the owner hates what they've built, people are miserable that used to be happy and really believe in the mission. Processes are broken. The Google Drive is a shit show, right, everything's a mess. And where I love coming in at that point because not only is, like my systems and process brain, super helpful, but I can address the burnout as well. Because, right, then it's about okay, how do we also overlay boundaries and ways of communicating and ways of working together that mitigate and protect against the burnout that people are experiencing, while also improving efficiency and setting the company up to scale right, so it's really a magical intersection of all the things that I love. So when, when that finally hit, I was like, oh, got it, I got it.
Speaker 1:I got it.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. And I told a couple of friends like early on, like, well, you know, I decided to kind of bring the business piece back into it, and they were like duh, like oh right, like it's really what I'm good at. And I think then the experience that I went through and that lens and this coaching focus that I've had just adds a new human dimension to the business-focused work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's another layer and it's starting with your area of expertise and then bridging into also an area that's maybe not quite as to the level of the business ops part, but it's still quite like high. And then you're using that as like a secondary, you know adjacent space to also help and then it's filling multiple buckets for you which obviously you didn't have, you know, for a long time. So I love it. I think it's amazing that even though it took a while, like you got there.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you know, aren't we all on that journey of iterating Like right? So I know that you've done a couple of rounds of it as well and we've talked through. So what's your latest focus, or what are you?
Speaker 1:feeling great about. Well, my latest is, you know, I still struggle to sign clients because I don't do a lot of outbound, because I don't really enjoy that. And then I think part of it. My coach, my current coach tells me I have like this psychological block about like helping people and like asking for money, and I sometimes I don't necessarily dispute that, but I sometimes wonder, similar to what you're talking about, with like not jumping in right away, because I'm similar to you, like I'm an introvert and typically take a while to warm up. And then, once I do, and if I know you and I trust you and I like you, then you see a different version of me. Then, like, if that does, if that's not the case, then you see a completely different side of me, right? And so I think sometimes it's hard for me in the coaching part, even though it's content coaching, which is not like super in depth that we're not talking about typically like life stuff or trauma or like anything like that.
Speaker 1:I do think I struggled, though, sometimes with that like initial, like building the relationship, because the people I've had the most success with are people that I've known for like a bit of time and so, like I've either had calls with them or I've seen a lot of their content and we've messaged and it like slowly like morphs into like okay, I want to help you, but I've had very little success with just like. I don't really know you, but we want to start working together and then we never really build any kind of rapport or any common ground, and then it's just kind of awkward. And so I'm, as you were saying that I'm like I wonder what if there's like another piece that I'm like missing to bridge the gap? Because, like, I am good at content, I'm good at creating content, good at writing content, I'm good at helping people with their content, but there's like it's not that simple. So I'm like there's still something that's like missing, um, that I haven't quite identified yet, but it's all, it's all an experiment.
Speaker 2:Uh, may I comment? Sure, we're on your podcast. You know where I.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've we've had prior conversations, mostly at picnic benches, awkwardly, but you know you do such an excellent job of telling stories right, and you teach other people to tell stories in the context of your work, which I love. You teach other people to tell stories in the context of your work, which I love. That's my second favorite of your content pillars is the data, the analytics and then the storytelling. There's something really special about the arc of your journey and it's. You know that. I just wonder to what extent that's the missing piece where you ladder your technical expertise to that particular journey of sort of getting yourself out of this cycle that you were in and the pattern that you were in and where you are now. By the way, your piece recently about your neurodivergence was incredible and so vulnerable, so special and so relatable, right. So I know it's uncomfortable for you to be the thing, but I wonder if that might be a little bit more of the thing or just sort of the architecture of the arc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely something there and that's honestly why I'm so interested in doing which. I just learned this You're not supposed to call it public speaking. It's supposed to call it professional speaking, which.
Speaker 2:I did not know Okay.
Speaker 1:She was like public speaking is for free, professional speaking as you get paid. Never say public.
Speaker 2:I was like noted, uh, so I'm gonna write that down, no, just kidding I?
Speaker 1:I'd never heard that before I. I had always said public speaking, but that's apparently a no-no, um, so that's why I'm ultimately so interested in doing public. See, I just see my default. My operating system defaulted to what I've said all the time Got to get that new neural pathway locked in. Don't have.
Speaker 1:I just learned it like 10 days ago, so it's not there, um, that's why I want to speak about, like, my story and my journey, because, you know, I followed the path that a lot of people followed right the four year degree, the, the good job, and then good luck and no real plan, and it doesn't really matter, like, what your values are, what you're good at, you just do it and if it's not aligned, do it anyway. Um, and then 40 years, make you know, make it last, um, so it took me a long time to get out of that and so I think a lot of people you know can relate to that part of it. Content was my ticket out and I didn't. Who knew, who knew that was going to be it, um, and speaking and telling stories and stuff, which is something I've done, naturally, for my whole life, but I never thought about it in terms of like getting paid or like a podcast or speaking or whatever.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, so I mean it's still relatively new. That's why I keep reminding myself. I mean, really I'm like eight months into this because the first part I didn't know this was going to be a thing, it was just more of a creative outlet, and then it took several months where it was like, oh, like I'm pretty good at this, I should lean into this more. So I get still really early. You know, in the grand scheme of life, right, we're talking milliseconds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so but yeah, I always appreciate your insight and I think you know there's not shame around it, but feeling like, oh, I haven't gotten it right yet.
Speaker 2:I don't like, I don't see it that way, it's right, we're converging, first of all.
Speaker 2:We're out here creating, we're putting ourselves out there. You know there's an awkwardness to trying to define an offering around it, for sure, but with again, with each cycle, it's sort of this process of iterative discovery and redefinition, and then you land on the point where your identity can show up in an authentic way within the context of the offer, which is where I think we're talking about with you. It's like, okay, I've got the story, the identity intact, and then the offers over here. What does it look like to bridge them together? Because once you can embody the identity and the story within the offer, then it's like I think it'll be a much more natural experience for you. You know like, for me, that insight of it being that inflection point in the business journey was such an unlock for me, because not only can I embody that, I've been there multiple times in different contexts but, it's like I know exactly who I'm talking to and exactly how my personal experience and my expertise serves that exact person at that exact moment in time in their own journey.
Speaker 2:So I can show up to sell in such a more embodied, confident and different way than I ever was before. And I think that's where the sweet spot is right. Then it just takes us a while to figure out before that like, okay, what is the angle right? We're all multidimensional people. How do I show up within my offer in a way that, even if I'm uncomfortable selling, I can sell because I know more than I know anything else that I deliver value in that relationship and that it's an act of service. It took me just like this whole time to kind of get to that point where I could show up in that conversation with no qualms and no self-consciousness, because I know for sure if you're in that situation, I am that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great point and it's the confidence part right, Like once you really find your lane or your niche, whatever you want to call it, and you really feel aligned with that, then it's not really selling anymore, because you're just talking about what you love and what you're good at and then the rest of it just kind of happens naturally. So I think you're right in terms of a little bit of the disconnect where it still feels kind of salesy because it's not quite like perfectly aligned right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing too. I think and I'm sure that you've had this or experienced it where, like when you're really good at something, then you take it for granted. Because I was saying to my coach like I didn't feel like I was really helping people that much and she was like why would you say that? And so I, you know, rattled off things and she was like how do you know that that wasn't all super valuable to them just because you didn't think it was like that much or that big a deal was like that much or that big a deal, or it was like, oh, this is like relatively minor.
Speaker 1:She was like most of the people you're working with had no idea, like everything you taught them and showed them was all like brand new and it was super valuable. So you, I think it's hard sometimes because like content's so easy for me and like telling stories is so easy I don't even have to really think about it. Well, that's not the case for a lot of people, and so I have to like keep reminding myself that like people actually really struggle with this. So it is valuable and content is very important, especially if you're trying to grow your business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and seeing the opportunity for content to be a path, a new path right, is, I think, really special.
Speaker 1:Yeah and um. I've had a lot of people push me to start a YouTube channel so I can do more. I can do longer videos where I make fun of things and because I made fun of the movie Halloween and people like that. So they were like I want to see more of it. And then we watched the Shining the next night, and so the whole time watching it. I'm like, all right, that's a plot hole, that's a plot hole, that's a plot hole.
Speaker 2:Jack Daniels is not bourbon. Okay, I've got something to work with here, so yeah, well, the whole first 20 minutes of this conversation before we started recording.
Speaker 1:Probably not the topical direction you want to go down. Yeah, I'd probably wait on that. We're recording this on November 6th, by the way, yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and the stand-up.
Speaker 1:The stand-up and it's like maybe part of it is the OCD. Maybe it's like maybe part of it is the OCD, maybe it's just the way my brain is wired, but my whole life I'm always observing things. When I go out, literally to run one errand, I feel like I have five stories and all I wanted to do was go to Kroger to get two things, but the person in front of me was too slow. No-transcript, it's not 1972 anymore. You didn't have to turn on one of three channels to be like what is the temperature outside? You also could have just stuck your head outside, but you didn't do that. If you roll out here, we're going to wait for two hours outside in four-degree weather shoes and some sweatpants on. Like come on. So like that kind of stuff, and like I just like I see all of this stuff and like I don't really have an outlet for it. So they're like you just need to like start a channel and then you just like can tell these stories and it's like entertainment.
Speaker 1:So I'm like okay maybe um, but that's like what I do, and so I think I think that's my ultimate goal.
Speaker 2:If I can just get paid to talk and tell stories, and if they're funny, fine, if they're not, also fine, if they're not also fine, I think that's ultimately like if I can get there, if I can make money doing that, I think I'll have finally found it up thing, it was great, like it's so cool that you did that and you know, right, showing up as a yes and you know, maybe even if you're not naturally inclined to be a yes, that was a big thing for me or like, in terms of my orientation, this year was just like, all right, I'm going to be a yes for as much as possible, right, and that like you're learning about yourself and the world and every single one of those opportunities and it's helping you to kind of converge on the thing.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's all it's like it's once. Once I really adopted the mindset of looking at it as an experiment and not as a failure, which I would have done, like previous versions of me would have already. Frankly, I probably already would have quit, cause I would be like it's not going to work, I'm not making enough money, I need to go back to. I just need to go get a job, even if I hate it, cause we just need the cash and whatever I'll, maybe I'll come back to it. I probably won't like a hundred percent, I would have already done that, but just on this kind of whatever journey I'm on, it's a little bit longer and like eventually it'll just like work itself out. That's what I keep telling my wife, because she's always like what, what, this is you're, this is still like you're, still I don't. What are we going to do?
Speaker 1:and I'm like five to ten year plan, like we're thinking long term here, like this is not a long game, yeah this is not the 8 to 12 month, like oh no we're going to pack it in like we're. We're like a decade plan and she was like we don't have enough money for a decade. I was like I am, I am aware of that, I will figure that out along the way, but, like you, have the side plan, yeah, yeah yeah, you have to think longer term.
Speaker 1:Um, so that's yeah, so it's, that's a different. I mean, that's different for me to even like consider that, let alone try to actively embrace it.
Speaker 2:You're doing a ton of work to get you there. I mean shout out to personal growth and therapist right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's huge right.
Speaker 2:We're able to kind of sit with ourselves and hold space for ourselves and be comfortable in the uncertainty in ways that neither one of us would have been able to before, and that's huge.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's amazing. Honestly, I would have, if you'd have told me, even like two months, two years ago, that I would do it, I'd be like probably not.
Speaker 2:Do what? Therapy or no?
Speaker 1:no Like the gray area, like the uncertainty, like embracing the uncertainty, cause I hate it so much right, like I always want, like the most certain outcome and the research, and like I know how it's going to go, even though you don't. It's all an illusion, but you have that illusion of safety and outcome and now to be like I have no idea, I really have no clue.
Speaker 2:Did you know? It was an illusion before you got to this point where you were comfortable with the uncertainty.
Speaker 1:A little before, but it's a relatively recent.
Speaker 2:They go together right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a recent understanding that it was all like. I mean, most of our safety is an illusion, right, right, like in life.
Speaker 2:And most of our control.
Speaker 1:Correct, right. I mean that's why the nine to five job is such. I mean it can go away tomorrow, right, they can fire you, they can let you have no control over any of it. So even if you love your job, it's, it's an illusion that nine to five is a daily illusion yeah it just is, um, and so many other things like that.
Speaker 1:So I think once I really started to like, look at that more closely and tap into it, it was like all right, like everything I thought was safe the guaranteed paycheck and the benefits and all that stuff and I, like everybody went through layoffs and downsizes, you know all that kind of stuff Um, you start to realize that, like there isn't, it doesn't really, it doesn't really exist, um, so let's create something for myself that I have control over and you know if I can make that work and I don't have to be relying on you know any of that stuff. But yeah, it took well, it took a lot, a lot of ups and downs and therapists and books and coaches Like, yeah, a lot, I could write a book probably just on, just on that, just on that part, yeah, um and I'm sure you could do the same thing.
Speaker 2:Perhaps we will. You'll professionally speak it and I'll write the book. There we go the audio book.
Speaker 1:I hadn't thought about that. Uh, the audio book. I hadn't thought about that. Uh, the audio book that I remember that was when I was stuck in the cubicle which was, I mean, I haven't really. I haven't actually really touched on that in my content. I don't know why I'm saving it. I have so many cubicle stories, um. But there was one day, I don't know, I was talking and the woman next to me who I didn't even know that well, she was like you have a voice for radio. She was like you should be on radio and I was like okay, so here we are, 12 years later.
Speaker 2:I'm coming to fruition yeah, slow cycle time, but that's okay very, very slow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 2012 um took me. It took me a while to get the memo.
Speaker 1:Um, this has been great. Uh, we're at an hour 10. I guess we should probably wrap this up. We could certainly go for much longer Absolutely Appreciate all of your insights, your forthright and your journey and the struggles and whatnot and I know you talked about, and we touched on it, the joys and frustrations of running your own business. What would you? Somebody listening, that's kind of, in that you know and really struggling, whether it's mentally or financially or just like it's a lot and you don't really understand how a lot it is until you try to do it Because it looks pretty easy from the outside. And then you start doing it and you're like, oh, I'm now responsible for everything. It can be overwhelming. So, like what would you? What would you kind of say?
Speaker 2:What would kind of be your you know advice or course of action to take? Yeah, I mean such a great question and I think you nailed it. A lot of people in that position feel like they're alone, right, because at that point in the growth trajectory, to even the people that might have come in early that they have, you know, a personal relationship with, are still depending on them to be the decision maker and to pay the you know, pay the bills and make payroll and all the things. So there's, there is a divide there. So partly, I mean it's you know, find your people to talk to.
Speaker 2:Obviously I'm an advocate for coaching, consulting, therapy, but community, and then you know it's the repeatable patterns, I think, are the easiest place to start.
Speaker 2:So look at the things that you're doing over and over again and what is the way to do those?
Speaker 2:Better, smarter, less manually, less painfully, because it's just kind of like in you know, I talk a lot about capturing the tiny pockets of time that we have.
Speaker 2:A lot of times when we're in burnout, we're just like, oh, I have five minutes, but I'm going to fill it in another email or I'm going to make that call and we seed that time, we give it up and then we're just kind of still stuck in that burnout, and so part of what I do in an individual capacity is like let's claim that time for yourself, and not only does that give you a tiny bit of breathing room, but it's like a way to show up in your agency and once you reclaim your agency now you're on a different path because you're not in this mindset that things are happening to you In running a business. It's like, okay, what are the patterns that, if you can address them, create those pockets of time right For there to be breathing room for the whole organization, or for you to capture that efficiency right, that capacity, and redirect it towards something else that's going to solve a problem that you have.
Speaker 2:I just think there's so much. I'm a pattern person, a data person, as we talked about, and really looking at those patterns and finding one, just like, pick one and say how can I I'm doing this over and over again right, it's like mopping up the water instead of turning off the faucet. So what can I do to stop mopping furiously to prevent myself from drowning? And where is the faucet? And how can I get to that faucet? Right, and just give yourself a little bit of relief and then suddenly you can step into that space. It really starts to create significant changes if you're doing that in small, you know small steps over and over again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great analogy. If you haven't written that post, you should, because I think that really resonates and it's very it makes a lot of sense. If you're identifying with that, you're like, oh okay, yeah, like, stop, stop continuing to clean up. Um, avoid the cleanup in the first place. I think that's really good. Um, yeah, you know, I was talking to my friend, uh, margaret Jennings. She's in Toronto. I don't know if you know her. Um, I should connect you to you guys. You guys would get along well.
Speaker 1:But, um, a call, I believe it was last week and we were just talking about what you're mentioning with the like, the loneliness of when you're doing your own thing, and especially if the people in your life are also doing it, which typically is the case because they're usually working, you know, kind of regular jobs um, is that you don't have that space. You don't have a space to vent or to just talk through problems or ideas. You're just always kind of stuck like in your head or in your notebook or whatever. And so she was like she was thinking about creating like a small group, cause she was. She was relating it to, like, you know, the water cooler in an office where, even if you didn't really like the job.
Speaker 1:You typically like some of the people and so you had people to like how was your weekend, how are your kids Like? You know you had that social aspect which then gave you something back, even if the work wasn't great. She was like but now, when you, that's been totally taken away, like you don't really have like the water cooler time in this like online social platform. Maybe if we just had a call like every two weeks and just you know, five to 10 people get on where you have that opportunity, like what did you do this weekend? Kids games and like all the stuff.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think it's a great idea, because I do think there is some of that that you lose where you're just like with yourself all the time, with your business all the time, which I also think is why it's hard to come up with ideas for your own business, because you're in it so much you're talking about in the kitchen, right in it, not on it, and it's very hard to make that like distinction. So if you have other people that aren't, it's much easier for them to be like what about this? You're like oh yeah, I never thought about that, absolutely, absolutely Makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1:So we didn't talk about the dogs, we did not talk about bike riding, we didn't talk about your time by design, like we missed like three like major talking points.
Speaker 2:So you'll have to come back on and I was gonna say I'll see you in 2025. There you go, we'll talk about that?
Speaker 1:uh, because we both have boys. Mine are just a little bit older. Which one of yours wears the jerseys all the time, does he still? Do that, that's jude the future professional footballer okay, yeah, um, he's still still rocking the jerseys my states every day, all day long yeah, like the full, like the socks and everything, like the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Well, he's moved away. He used to wear the full kitted all the time. Now he only wears the full kit if he's playing soccer.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:He then wears the jersey and normal bottoms and socks for school, school, okay. There's not a day where he's not wearing some sort of soccer paraphernalia.
Speaker 1:And is it usually like his team or is it like the professionals?
Speaker 2:No, usually the professionals Professional jerseys yeah.
Speaker 1:Who's his favorite player?
Speaker 2:Right now, you mean them all.
Speaker 1:Top like two or three.
Speaker 2:Ronaldo.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean he caught the wave after the World Cup or during the World Cup and I think, like every time I go to tryouts, the 2015 cohort is massive, I think, all those kids skipped the stage of I want to be an astronaut, I want to be a firefighter, I want to be a policeman.
Speaker 2:I went straight to I'm going to be a professional football player yeah because it's like literally there'll be 12 kids at the tryout in every other year and the 2015s is like 100. I'm like j, you really got to step it up. If you're plus, we're in Miami, so the market is really competitive here.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, because you've got messy right now. Right, well, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2:You know, these kids have been playing soccer since they were in the womb. Basically, it's like culturally it's a huge sport here.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean it's definitely growing, I think, think just in the states overall, and especially with, like, the football concussions, I think there's kids that maybe would have played like regular traditional american football that have moved to soccer, even though there's some concussion issues with soccer but it's not nearly as yeah, not nearly as prevalent.
Speaker 1:I know they're doing like you know no head balls until they're like 16 and like all that kind of stuff, but yeah, um, so I think that's part of it. And then, like you said, like the coverage, like premier league games are on here right like a lot. My kids will watch premier league games and they like liverpool and arsenal and like know the teams and the jerseys and stuff. So like that was not happening, like when I was a kid.
Speaker 2:Like jude asked me all the time and I'm like I have no idea. It wasn't a thing you know it wasn't like I.
Speaker 1:I think I was in college and my roommate he like he knew the Premier League. That was like the first time that I think I even knew that, like it existed, and yeah, it's like a totally different world. But it's just, you know, with technology and like digital and streaming and stuff, like we just didn't have access to it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:But no, I love it. I to it Absolutely, but no, I love it. I love when you do the pictures and, like he always, he's always decked out, always. So, as we wrap up, what? How can people reach you? I'm pretty sure you have a website, obviously your LinkedIn profile. If you want to give that out, I'll put that in the show notes too. And then any final, any final parting words yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:So on LinkedIn it's a great place I post, as we already discussed, on a regular basis there as Time, by Design or Nicole Green it's G-R-E-E-N-E, and then my website is Nicole J Green, so same green with an E at the end dot com, and that's where you can find all of the myriad offerings and different touch points and downloads to address limiting beliefs and finding your fulfillment and all of the good stuff that we touched on here. And, yeah, parting thoughts. Thank you so much for having me. You know I was having major FOMO watching all of your podcast posts, so I appreciate that you allowed me to suggest myself.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to put it. Yeah, no, I was. Yeah, I should have had you on earlier. I'm so appreciative that you came on.
Speaker 2:I'm not shitting.
Speaker 1:There's no shitting um super grateful for you and your friendship and your insight and being there and support means a lot to me and I appreciate coming on.
Speaker 2:Thank you likewise thanks for having me.