The Real You
1:1 Long-Form Interviews with Interesting People Doing Amazing Things
In-depth discussion of people's journeys to tap into their full potential and find ways to be the truest version of themselves.
The Real You
EP 27: Pursuing Passion: Jamie Dykstra's Journey from Finance to Ghostwriting Success
What if leaving the stability of the corporate world could lead you to your true passion?
Join us as we explore Jamie Dykstra's transition from a finance and project management career to becoming a successful nonfiction book ghostwriter.
In a candid discussion, Jamie shares how a supportive friend and a business coach helped her uncover a love for writing she never expected. From blogging and copywriting to finding her niche in ghostwriting, she discovered the profound joy of helping others bring their stories to life.
Jamie also opens up about the world of ghostwriting, offering a glimpse into her meticulous process of capturing a client's unique voice. She shares strategies for maintaining cohesiveness and nurturing authentic client relationships.
Discover how social media, especially LinkedIn, plays a crucial role in reaching a diverse clientele, proving that the digital world can be a powerful tool for creative professionals seeking meaningful connections and career growth.
The episode considers the evolving perceptions of creative careers after COVID, challenging the outdated "starving artist" mindset. Jamie's journey underscores the potential for stability and fulfillment in creative pursuits, drawing parallels between the challenges faced by NFL quarterbacks and those encountered by creatives.
As we wrap up our conversation, Jamie's inspiring story serves as a reminder that following your passion can lead to both personal and professional success, and sometimes, making bold career choices is the key to unlocking a more rewarding future.
Jamie's LinkedIn Profile:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-dykstra/
Non-Fiction Book Blueprint:
https://jamiedykstra.com/download-your-free-non-fiction-book-blueprint/
David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/
David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/
Welcome to the Real you Podcast. This is episode 27, and this will be the first one released in 2025. I'm David Young, your host. I'm a LinkedIn content and business coach. I help coaches and solopreneurs grow their businesses through better storytelling and content creation. I launched this podcast in March of 24 to spotlight interesting people doing amazing things, and today I'm joined by Jamie Dykstra, a nonfiction book ghostwriter who moved from the world of finance and spreadsheets, which are two of my favorite things, to tales of triumph and adventure. We'll discuss her journey, how she uses LinkedIn, how she fosters authentic relationship building her focus on joy in the writing process and the. This is a challenge for all of us ever-evolving quest to master her mindset as a solopreneur, which is a very real challenge. Jamie, thanks so much for making time for me and coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. How did you get from finance and accounting and spreadsheets to writing? That's not a common it's not.
Speaker 2:It was definitely a journey. I get this question a lot and I think a lot of people thought one day I was just like, oh, I'm going to be a writer, that would have been easier. But yeah, my undergraduate degree is in accounting. I have a master's in finance.
Speaker 2:After college I joined the corporate world and I got a job in corporate finance, which I loved. I loved the people that I worked with. I got to learn a lot. I also got to dabble in some project management and ended up becoming a certified PMP. So then I started to focus later on in my corporate career on kind of project management and operations. I love the people aspect, I love coordinating things and organizing and all of that because while I liked spreadsheets, the people kind of lit me up and that's what I enjoyed the most. But then April of 2022, I was like I need a break. I need a corporate break. I had had some great experiences, but at that point in time it just felt aligned to take a step back and I started working at small, local family business here and I was just going to do that for the summer and, you know, get some income still and then rejoin the corporate world after summer was over. It was going to be my adult summer break.
Speaker 1:Summer of Jamie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the summer, I think I did term it that way at one point. I got to the end of the summer and I was like, nope, don't want to go back to the corporate world. I just, yeah, it just felt like this huge weight every time I thought about it. I loved the freedom I had developed over the summer and it was hard to go back after that. So I was like, well, the only solution that I know is to start my own business. So I honestly kind of backed into it. So I had the idea I want to start a business, but I have no idea what I want to do.
Speaker 2:One of my really good friends who I'd also worked with she was like you're really good at writing. Why don't you maybe like start a blog or something, see if you can do some affiliate income or whatever and see where it goes? And I was like, well, yeah, like that's, that's a good idea, but I have no idea what to write about. At which point she listed like 10 different blog type series that I could do and I was like, okay, I see your point.
Speaker 2:So I started the blog. I hired a coach. Rasa DeSalvo was my business coach that I hired. She's phenomenal. I joined a mastermind, saw the power of coaching, actually endeavored down the coaching path for a while and then she was like, hey, you know, you kind of of kind of like abandoned the writing thing that you wanted to do and I was like, oh yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:And so one day last fall we were brainstorming like ways to make money writing and one of the ways that had come up in the brainstorm that she had mentioned actually was copywriting. And I was like because I mean, to be honest, I knew I was good at writing I had no idea ways you could make money writing besides writing your own book and selling it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:She mentioned copywriting and she kind of gave me a brief overview and I was like, yeah, it sounds good, I'm going to do it. And she was like, well, you know, I can sit with that, like I worked in corporate, I can write emails with the best of them. And I just decided that was kind of what I wanted to do. I joined a course. I invited people I had three clients within the first week of small business owners that I knew and so I was like, well, I'm a copywriter and now I got to figure it out, and so that was how I got the traction in my business. I just started to get more clients from there. And then I learned about ghostwriting.
Speaker 2:End of last year, earlier this year, and one of the coaches in my copywriting course he had a lot of ghostwriters were copywriters in their previous life. Learn more about ghostwriting. I was like that is the stuff. Like I've always wanted to write books, but I love getting to tell other people's stories and helping them share their lessons. It just it felt awesome and so that's that's how I. That was my long and winding path from finance to being a ghost writer.
Speaker 1:Well, it makes I mean there's there's some logic there. You didn't just you know, like just up and quit and be like I'm going to write like it kind of it kind of evolved, you know, over time. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about copywriting as a like segue into ghost writing. I think I would. I don't think I would have put that together, but that's interesting, so it makes. I mean, it does make sense. What do you write?
Speaker 2:nonfiction books. So is that business like biographies? Yeah, it can be a whole host of things. So memoirs is a big one. Business books, of course, is a big one, and that doesn't have to be a biography. You know people, especially consultants, coaches, whatever have frameworks and systems that work, that they can put in a book, and of course they're sharing their stories along the way. But it's not technically a biography. Personal development books fall in that realm as well, and actually travel books too, which I hadn't really thought about. But you see all my posts and the travel variety definitely interests me, and a lot of those are still technically memoirs but with the travel focus, and there's a lot of good lessons that come out of travel as well, and so that's been a really interesting one to kind of dive into as well.
Speaker 1:Is that? Did you cause? You do post a lot of pictures about traveling is? Was that related to the books or you were kind of doing that on your own then, that kind of tied into the books after the fact?
Speaker 2:I was doing that on my own the summer of Jamie. I was like, well, I got to embrace it, right Going everywhere. Yeah, I actually. I traveled like a normal amount beforehand but.
Speaker 2:I started to travel more then and I had some friends in Wyoming that I mean it's like a six hour drive to anywhere get out West, and so they are always willing to meet me places and they would be like, hey, meet us in Park City and I'm like, okay, so I'll just hop on a plane. Really, the traveling kind of started after I left corporate and this year I was like intentionally trying to reconnect with some college friends and stuff, and one of them lives in California, Another one lives in the Philly area and so just naturally trying to connect with people lended itself to traveling. And so it kind of happened, by accident, to be quite honest, and then it was happening so much that this year I was like I want to travel like every two months at least. And it worked out and it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Nice. Now do you write, I assume, even when you're on the road, do you still write, or do you use that time to kind of get away from it?
Speaker 2:It depends on the trip. So if it's like a long weekend, I'll usually try to work ahead and just totally disconnect. But if it's you know the seven to ten day variety then I do end up working. But I'll usually only log in for two, three hours in the morning, knock it out. Usually the other people are.
Speaker 1:We don't have plans first thing in the morning unless you know, a Yellowstone day can take the entire day and more.
Speaker 2:I will work on those longer trips.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, was it hard to find the first ghostwriting client.
Speaker 2:Yes, um, I, I ghostwriting is a higher ticket service and so getting someone to invest in that and of course you don't you don't charge the highest amount right away, you charge some more intro pricing, but but still it's, it's an investment of time and money and, um, and the first one, you know, yeah, hey you're my first but I did hired a ghostwriting coach as well, which was, uh, ryan guthrie is my ghostwriting coach too.
Speaker 2:I can't speak highly enough of either of my coaches, um, and and he was a great help in that too, because when I'd get on discovery calls I'd be like, hey, I have this coach that's done this for years and he's he's gonna be everything giving feedback, detailed comments and that gave a lot of comfort and really helped with kind of securing that first client. So you're not really just getting someone doing it for the first time Like you're getting a seasoned professional like this.
Speaker 1:I'm not just going to wing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it gives it kind of validated by what you're doing. So I mean that makes a lot of sense. I'm assuming now that you've done it multiple times, even if you still have a coach, you have enough kind of credentials and experience where it's not probably not as big a deal now, I'm assuming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely still early on in the journey because you know, books, books take some time to work through and I do still have my coach having continued. I told him he stuck with me for a while just because it's the quickest way to learn Right and I feel good about giving people that value. But yes, the first couple of projects especially as with any business venture it's like huge learning curve and learn so much from from those to feel more confident going into the next ones.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, for sure, what I know. It probably varies depending on the client and the topic, but typically how long does it take you to write kind of the start, start, start of a project, to end a project like what is? Again, I know it varies but like what's a ballpark of, like what you kind of anticipate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I typically tell people that for our time together for the ghostwriting it's a four to six month process for just the writing and that is like you said. It depends. It's varied client to client and they kind of get to drive it. Some people want to meet once a week, some people want to meet once every other week and it depends on the length of the book and kind of their journey as well. It can go longer. I would say it would not go shorter because we don't want to sacrifice quality for speed. But yeah, it kind of depends on the client, which is why, like I said, I just learned about it earlier this year. So I'm quite honestly working through my first couple of projects still, but I've learned an immense amount from it.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, do you have a set writing process where, like you, always write at a certain time each day, or do you vary, or kind of how do you like? How do you set that up?
Speaker 2:I do, and that's been a journey as well, to kind of figure out what works best. But I'm an early riser and so I usually log in by six and that's when I do the book writing stuff. So the really deep writing I do first thing in the morning. My brain is freshest, no one's bugging me, I'm not getting emails and phone calls and stuff like that, and so I do my deep writing from like that six to eight or nine time frame. And yeah, for ghost writing it also actually depends on the type of book too.
Speaker 2:So, like business and personal development books, we'll do an interview with a client and then do the writing for that particular interview after it's done and continue the cadence For a memoir. It's different because there can be things that come out as they tell their story that really impact the story, and so you don't want to be writing as you go and then having to try to backtrack to make it more cohesive, and so the writing strategy can change a little bit. But for me personally, yeah, it's lighting that candle with my cup of coffee at 6 am. Right now I have like my colored Christmas tree next to me.
Speaker 2:I got to get all the ambience, and then I listen to the recording and then get to me. I got to get all the ambience and then I listened to the recording and then get to writing.
Speaker 1:Nice. Do you have a goal then with a two to three hour chunk to get accomplished, or you just use more of a time thing, like whatever? You kind of get done in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I usually try to and again, it depends on the structure of the book. I usually try to get one chapter done during that time, so it's cohesive and it's not like I stopped and started in the middle of it. Or if it's got, you know, shorter sections, I'll set a goal for you know, three sections or whatever to get through. So it's mostly my goal is cohesiveness and however long it takes to get through that cohesive chunk is what I'll devote to it.
Speaker 1:Do you set? How often then are you sending? Sending drafts or copies to the client?
Speaker 2:That's somewhat client dependent too and obviously book dependent, because the memoir, all of that kind of comes at the end. But definitely in every case the client will get the first, at least in my process. Every ghostwriter is different. Client gets the first 20 to 25 pages. Make sure that I'm capturing their voice and the tone and everything that they want, because basically as a ghostwriter you have to pretend to be them writing it and that's a journey that I mean the first draft is it's.
Speaker 2:You're not going for perfection on the first draft, right. It's a journey of learning different styles and tones and creative perspectives and because for the author, like it's their, it's their baby, like a book is a bucket list thing for a lot of people. So it's working through some of that and then kind of gauging from there how to go afterwards. Giving too many chunks too frequently in the first draft can be problematic because it is such a work in progress. So it's just kind of sometimes that'll be it. If the first 20 to 25 pages is like yeah, like we're on a good track, then probably just take it from there and keep writing to make sure I can move things around as needed in the writing process. But if there's more refinement then I'm happy to you know, get more sections later on to refine.
Speaker 1:Makes sense? Do you have them submit emails or papers or content creation that shows their writing? So you kind of it kind of gives you an insight into, like, how they write, or how do you go about capturing their voice through writing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I usually don't ask them to submit things, but I find them on social media. I see what they've posted. I look for talks that they've social media. I see what they've posted. I look for talks that they've done on YouTube or podcasts that they've been on things like that and to really try to because yes, there's a difference in literary voice and speaking voice but really if I can listen to at least their speaking voice, then I get a feel for words that they use and cadence and things like that.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, and you talked about the joy in writing. Obviously it's something you have to enjoy to do, certainly for any long period of time. Is it something you're kind of consciously and mindful about, like the joy in writing, or like how do you, how do you kind of manifest the joy part when it comes to writing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, when I talk about the joy in writing, I'm usually actually my goal is to make the process the most joyful for my clients that it can be. Um, of course, I want to find you know the joy myself, but my focus is the joy in in the process for other people, because I think so often what holds people back from writing a book is themselves is how much time it's going to take, how much energy drain it's going to be. How am I going to fit this in? What am I going to write about? I don't know where to start, and so I not only want to help them to make that happen, but I want it to be fun for them. Right? A book is we're spending a lot of time together. During that time.
Speaker 2:I just I just wrapped up a project and we we developed like we spent a lot of time together got to know each other really well and so I want people to come to their meetings and be like excited about coming to the meetings and not be like, oh man, this is another commitment. I don't know, and that's really what my focus is is maybe the joy in the process for the client and loving how it's going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that makes sense. Is that part of the relationship building that you mentioned in the time that you're spending together? And then, obviously, that's only going to help you know, whether it's referrals or recommendations or testimonials right, that's obviously a key part, you know, to all of that.
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah, the relationship building is so paramount for really anything. I mean LinkedIn's. I've met incredible people through LinkedIn this year, you being one of them. That's kind of how the relationship starts. Is that genuine outreach of like?
Speaker 2:I'm not looking to get anything out of this and if something comes out of it, that's fantastic. But I really like you and your brand and what you stand for and I'd like to connect and I think that starts a solid foundation of like I'm not just a transactional person, like I genuinely I'm excited about what you do and I'm excited about helping with your book and then, yeah, it's holding that space. Being a ghostwriter is a very you become deeply involved with that person because a book it can be a cathartic process and, depending on the topic of the book too, it's a vulnerable one as well, as people kind of tell you their stories and what they've learned from it and go through their own journey as well, and like reminding people, like yes, your story is worth telling and people need to hear it, and things like that. So having the authentic relationship and not just the I'm here to get in and out and ready to move on, is really important.
Speaker 1:No, it makes sense. You had an interesting post it's been maybe two or three weeks ago that I hadn't thought about until I read it about kind of the mystery of the ghostwriter and the fact that you don't get any credit. You're not mentioned anywhere. It's completely anonymous and like kind of the psychology in that. So talk about that a little bit. I thought that was fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something people get caught up on it and, quite honestly, I know I said I just got into ghostwriting earlier this year but I'd heard people talk about it. I didn't really know what it was like on a writing podcast of hey, I write books for people, but I just write it and then I just I could never wrap my head around it until I guess this year, like the penny dropped. And to someone who's not doing it, I totally understand it. Like hey, you're doing all of this work and like you, you don't get any credit for it like I don't understand, but for me it's really a reward.
Speaker 2:I mean, first of all, I just practically as a ghostwriter you're compensated up front, so like I'm being paid for doing the work. That's all that, really, from a business perspective that's. It's a fair practice, right? It's not unfair that my name's not being mentioned, like I'm getting paid for the work and we move on. But more than that, the joy and the fulfilling and meaningful part for me is helping other people to tell their story, and it doesn't. It truly is the author's book. I'm just physically helping them to put it on paper and structure it, but it's their stories, it's their teachings, it's all their content. So it should be their name on the cover, right? It's their brainchild and I'm just physically helping to put words on paper for them, and so I think that's something that people don't think about when they ask. The question is not really me, and I'm just happy to be able to help people make an impact in the world through writing their book.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, that's a great, great way to approach it. Could they Is it their choice? Like, could they say you know ghost written by Jamie Dykstra, if they wanted to, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely the way my NDAs are structured, is it's author's discretion how they want to acknowledge so they can put an, they can do whatever they want with it. I'm just, you know, not going to be out there. You know, talking about it.
Speaker 1:You're not going to be out there.
Speaker 2:you know talking about it, so you're not going to do the promotion Like I wrote that book. Let me talk about it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, that's funny. So how long have you been on LinkedIn and have are you able to use LinkedIn? I know you're new to it, but is it something where you see as a potential, like place to find clients, or is it more just about just awareness and building, you know, relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, linkedin has surprisingly been one of the exclusive ways that I've found my clients. Actually, I've been on LinkedIn since college or whatever. Right, I think I don't have a huge following and I'm okay with that. It's not my goal for it. I mean, of course, more is better, but it's not. My goal in posting is to increase my following. It happened quite by accident. I started posting my blog and I was like, well, I got to put it on social media, I guess, otherwise, no one's ever going to see it, and so I put it on LinkedIn and when I started copywriting I had invited I asked a few small business owners that I knew.
Speaker 2:But after that, the next clients that I had were people that I'd previously known from my corporate life or school or things like that that saw my posts about what I was doing and they reached out and they were like hey, like I've been seeing your posts, I see your writing samples now, and like I think it might be a good fit to work together, and so I was like, like it's working.
Speaker 1:I'm on to something I'm on to something here.
Speaker 2:So I had actually almost given up on the blog at one point last year, but then I started getting clients from it and from LinkedIn and I was like, well, I should lean into this more. So I don't post a huge amount, I post two to three times per week, but that's for ghostwriting too. I've found. You know, those clients have come through LinkedIn as well, and actually someone that, um, I'm, you know, planning to work with was like yeah, you just popped up on my like for you feed, basically Like we had no real connection to each other. He just saw my posts and I was like, all right, well, we're going to keep doing this LinkedIn thing and keep reaching out because it's working.
Speaker 1:No, it's amazing. I mean you've done like the blog. I don't know if it's all your posts, but a lot of your posts are like the blog series, so it makes sense. It's all like tied together. So I feel like it works very. It's very synchronous for like what you're doing and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks, yeah, what do you have? I know you haven't done a lot of them, but have you the memoir or business book? Do you have like a preference? Do you enjoy writing one more than another, or is it kind of the same process? So it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what I'm focused on when I'm seeing if a client is a good fit is more it's going to sound nebulous but we can dive into it is the vibe Making sure that the client itself and I are a good fit together, because it's a long and it's a closely intertwined process. And so I think if you're aligned on kind of your general priorities and approach to work and things like that, and of course you prefer interesting subject matter, but to me it's more important that I love working with the person than what the subject actually is, because if you enjoy that and they're excited about it, if they're excited about what they're doing, then it's going to be exciting to write the book because they're excited about it.
Speaker 1:Okay, that makes sense. I don't think I would have thought about that. I thought I would have thought, if you'd asked me, I would have guessed subject matter more so than relationship. But that's interesting that it's really the other way around.
Speaker 2:For me at least. Other people might be different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is this kind of something you see, like doing for a while, like this kind of like the path that you're on. You feel like you've kind of figured it out and found it and you'll do this for a while.
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, it's in the words of Taylor Swift. I feel like there's been a invisible string kind of pulling me through to this point for a long time. I was just telling someone, like in high school I thought I thought I was this math person, numbers person, whatever I want to finance. But my English teachers like begged me, like please, please, take the honors and the AP courses. And I was like no, don't like English, not good at it, just don't, I don't. And they're like, no, but you are. And I'm like I don't have time for that, I'm so focused on my sports and stuff, I don't, I don't want to read and write. And then so, yeah, it's funny and ironic now, like they nailed it. And then, even in the corporate world, like always, I loved doing the documentation, the government governance and procedures and meeting minutes and sops.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and everyone's like, well, you're crazy. And I'm like, well, I like, I like writing. And at the time I didn't know any other ways that you could like make good money like writing, unless you were gonna like be a lawyer. And I contemplated on a few days so like, oh, maybe I should go to law school. And then that thought like quickly dissipated when I thought of everything else involved.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, I mean it is interesting that teachers they had they almost had the insight that you didn't because they could see it. But sometimes it takes you a while I think all of us kind of go through that where people point stuff out to you You're like, eh, you just kind of dismiss it.
Speaker 1:And then later on you're like I think I'm going to come back to that. I think I actually should try that, or I'm good at that, or I at least want to try it, see if I'm good at it. So that's fascinating that it was really there the whole time.
Speaker 2:It was there and I think, yeah to your point. We so often need other people to tell us and I actually I've heard this on the past few podcasts that you've released too Like we often don't see our own strengths or realize that, and we need other people to tell us what our strengths are, because we don't believe it. And um, and still working on, still working on that too. That's. That's part of the ever evolving quest and also part of that journey has been overcoming. Like I said, I was like I don't know how to make money writing unless I'm like a lawyer or something, right. And it's overcoming the societal beliefs around creative careers, I think, and I think since COVID and working online, that started to shatter a little bit, but people still have the starving artist mentality and I've actually had a couple of people say to me like, yeah, I would do, like I'd love to do, what you do, but I have a lifestyle that I need to maintain. I'm like, okay, well, so do I, and it's been fine. Like I'm more than okay, right.
Speaker 1:They're like knocking your lifestyle Like mine is so much better than yours, so it's fine for you, but it would never work for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like, wait a second, let's step back.
Speaker 1:That's funny. No, you're right, it is changing slowly. Definitely, post-co rid of you. They can and will get rid of you kind of anytime if that is in their best interest and it's their business right, and maximizing profits is their goal and that's on them. It's not right or wrong, but it's true and so societally. We were programmed myself for a long time that there was that safety in the paycheck. You'd have it forever or until you left and I went through layoffs several times but still, even though you see it and experience it, I don't know it always still feels like distant and you're like, oh well, the next company will be different or whatever. So there's no, there is no safety, it just it's not there.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, anything you do is a risk.
Speaker 1:Get correct Right. It's A life is a risk, right.
Speaker 2:Every day.
Speaker 1:Every day. There's nothing inherently truly safe. I mean some more than others, but right, it's all we're all day to day. Was it a challenge for you moving from the corporate you know bi-weekly or monthly paycheck and insurance and benefits and like kind of everything that goes with that to because you obviously left voluntarily, you did your summer but then you didn't go back? Was that a big adjustment to get used to not having that?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting evolution. No, but I always positioned myself in a way that I did still have steady income. So even when I was working at the family business, I still had you know I was, I wasn't working as many hours and stuff like that and I would purposely had backed it down. So I adjusted, you know, I started saving a little more and things like that. I adjusted my spending and in my mind, right, I was still going back to corporate. So I'm like well, I saved enough, I'm going back to corporate.
Speaker 2:It'll be fine and then I kept. I ensured that I still had steady income even as I started my business, and so I was doing the copywriting simultaneously with that when I first started. And then I once I felt secure enough in that I actually structured most of my copywriting as retainers, so I still had the comfort of recurring income and I realized that's not always a possibility. I did still have some projects, but it's all what you prefer as copyright. Some people prefer projects where they can do it, be done and then take a break or whatever, but for me I've always structured it as retainer clients to have that consistent income. And actually I do still have a couple of retainer clients that I work with, that I love working with, that I do in addition to the ghostwriting, and so it's a really nice balance because because, yeah, having just the lumpy income is something that I think I would struggle with.
Speaker 1:Do you find it challenging with the ghostwriting? Obviously you said you get paid up front, which is, I'm assuming, a fairly large sum since it's such a big project. Do you find it difficult, when you get a lump sum like that, to then make it last If you're getting paid for six months in advance, like parsing it out? Or have you figured out kind of the best way to manage that part of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I say upfront, I mean like before the book is published. So I know I'm not dependent on book sales, but we do spread out the payments over the course of the project and so usually it's kind of four quarters over over the life of the project. But totally flexible on that Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, so that makes it easier.
Speaker 2:I would consider myself to be, besides my travel habits, a fairly frugal person too. So, yeah, it's been okay. I realize the benefits of the freedom and the time that I get outweigh any money, but, to be quite honest, the abundance mindset has come through and that's all been fine too.
Speaker 1:So yeah, nice Um, and probably having the finance background helps a little bit too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it doesn't hurt, I'll tell you that.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's funny. So this it's fascinating. I really it's so educational for me. I don't know much about the ghostwriting process. I've had people tell me that I should write a book and I'm like, well, there's no way I would ever do it. Like someone would have to write it for me. Like I'm like I just I couldn't write in that form. I can write content, maybe an email, but like a book, like no, no way. So do you write screenplays?
Speaker 2:I have an idea for a screenplay. I do not write screenplays but I do have a friend that writes screenplays so I'm happy to pass you off to her. There's a reason I stay out of the fiction world and fiction is hard. I think a lot of people think it's easier, but it's hard to get it in the right story arc and everything and nonfiction. I just stick to what people tell me, their facts and their stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't have to make it up. Yeah, fiction is fascinating and like, like you said, the characters and the development and the details and having it make sense, and then the plot, the story, like it's like a true, a true art to like come up with that stuff you know, just from scratch. Yeah, really fascinating. So, as we finish up here, so we talked about, or you mentioned, sports and I've seen in your post talking about the Bears. You live, I think, in the Chicago, close to the Chicago area.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:What do you think the Bears? What are the Bears going to do?
Speaker 2:Do you think they'll ever? Will they ever figure it out? Or will it just be dysfunction forever? You know they made a step in the right direction by, you know, making a-season change in the head coach, which has never happened before, but their style we.
Speaker 2:So I you know I probably have false hope. Uh, deep, deep, deep down, I think we're gonna be stuck in this cycle forever unless we make some drastic changes. But this is this is a pattern that we have. We hire a head coach, we do a first round qb draft pick. We hire a head coach. We do a first round QB draft pick. We hire a head coach, we do a first round QB draft pick. We never bolster the offensive line. I think we take care of a lot of surface things, but never really root causes of things.
Speaker 2:So I fear we'll be here a while.
Speaker 1:You also traded for Trubisky when you could have had Mahomes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, let's not remind us of that. But honestly, it worked out well for Mahomes, so I'm happy for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, because, not that he's not great, but without Andy Reid, if he had gone to the Bears and experienced the Bears' dysfunction, yes, he would still be good because of his talent and ability, but he in no way would have three Super Bowls and be considered this on the path to Hall of Fame and like all that kind of stuff. Like Andy Reid, I mean, it takes two coach and quarterback, obviously connected, but it worked.
Speaker 2:It did work out well for him yeah, I was telling someone the other day I'm like man, I just feel bad for every quarterback that ends up on the Bears and he was like well, I don't really feel. I mean, they're still making millions of dollars and I'm like, okay, point taken, but it is like their livelihood in their career and like, tell me a bears quarterback. That's like risen to fame after being on the bears.
Speaker 1:Like I'll wait yeah, it's, it's been. It's really interesting. They just for such a great sports town and they have some iconic sports figures across the franchises. For whatever reason, right, the bears quarterback is just, it's like a black hole forever yeah, it's a struggle someday.
Speaker 2:And then we, you know, we have the packers who, like, can't miss with the quarterback if they tried.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's true, it's almost the, it's almost the inverse. Williams seems pretty good, though I think I mean he's shown signs of being okay. Obviously dysfunction at coach around him and they've lost games they should have won and stuff, but I think if he has, I mean they have some talent around him. Like you said, the offensive line needs help. Defense is solid. So I think if they can bring in I assume they're going to hire an offensive coach I think that would make the most sense. Right, and if they can get him some stability and play calling and system and give him some time, I think he'll be fine. I think he has. I don't know if he's going to be as great as a number one pick should be, but I don't know. I think he has enough tools and he's so young. I think with the right system he eventually can figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like Williams a lot, I liked Fields. I mean I've liked a lot of the various quarterbacks when they come in and, quite honestly, don't fault them. I don't fault them, I think they just got put into the dysfunction. But I think our offensive coordinator, who's now the interim head coach, I think he's done a good. I mean he made the adjustments against the Lions that we needed to make to be. He's made the adjustments every time in the second half to put us in a position to be in these games. So I think he knows what he's doing. So I'm hopeful that williams and now the ocb in the interim can hopefully we'll.
Speaker 2:We'll start to get the band together, because our defense is never a problem. They're always there and we have a great receiving core, so we'll be okay yeah, nice.
Speaker 1:Do you think they'll get rid of poles, or you think they'll let him pick the next coach?
Speaker 2:uh, I think they already actually said uh on the news here a few days ago that they're letting him pick the next coach.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I know with war, because with warren being in charge I kind of thought that he would want, like, because polls was there before warren. I think that usually they don't like. They usually like their own people everywhere. So I think that'll be interesting. Maybe they have a good relationship, that he would allow him to say, but a lot of times, because I think the lions are going to be the blueprint for, or they should be the blueprint for, dysfunctional franchises because, like they took a different approach.
Speaker 1:They brought in holmes and campbell. They're on the same page. They had a plan. They knew it was going to be bad for a while, which it was, and then now look where they are in three years. So it's like, if detroit can figure it like, I think that has to give hope to like the Jets, the Bears, maybe Jacksonville, like teams that are just kind of historically kind of bad all the time, or at least have dysfunction all the time. If you get the right people in place and then allow them to work, like with the right vision, like it can work. But I just don't think teams do enough planning and foresight and they make they just don't make great long-term decisions yeah, yeah what sports do you mention?
Speaker 1:sports like?
Speaker 2:what sports did you play like growing up, high school and stuff yeah, I, um, I played field hockey, basketball and softball nice, so those were my three, and then I I coached them when I was in college and slightly after graduating college as well.
Speaker 1:Nice, did you play in college too?
Speaker 2:I did not. No, okay, yeah, I knew school was going to be a big lift and I really wanted to go to Notre Dame and obviously that's super competitive for sports there, so school was plenty.
Speaker 1:No, we were just talking about that the other day. Would you? I'll ask you. So let's say you could have walked on at Notre Dame, it doesn't matter the sport. Would you rather walk on at a major, high-level D1 program but never play, so just always be a practice player and on the bench? Or would you rather go to a D2 school where no one would ever see you but you, like you, would play and be a contributing member like most of your time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think my answer again is going to be neither of those. I did actually almost I did the first step of trying to walk onto the. Notre Dame softball team.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And then my own self-doubts got in the way and they invited me back to continue trying out and I pulled myself out.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Which is actually a microcosm of that solopreneur mindset that I mentioned, is that self-doubt. And now I never know how that would have ended up, because but part of it was I don't know if I'll ever play and school is going to be really hard. But as I was going through the process, you know I could have done the D2, d3 thing, probably some D1 places, but I knew that's not what was going to carry me, especially at that time for women's sports. I knew that's not what was going to carry me after graduation. So finding the school that was the right fit for me was my priority. And then if the sports worked out, that was great, if not, that's fine too.
Speaker 1:Nice Gosh. Now we need a sliding doors of what would have happened if you went back.
Speaker 2:I know seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine. I don't know. I think I would go. I played D3 forever ago, a year of D3 basketball, but there was no scholarship. I was paying to go there and then I just did basketball right, and it wasn't that much fun and we weren't that good and I'd kind of just burn out because I'd been playing my whole life.
Speaker 1:But I think if I'd gotten a scholarship or if it had been D2, it would have been different. But I think I would rather go to a smaller school and play. I mean, I didn't really sit much in most of the sports I played. I just don't think, even at D1 and travel and all the bells and whistles you get, if I just had to sit and watch I don't think I could do it.
Speaker 1:And it's a huge commitment to spread that yeah for sure, and I get it, you won't have that at the smaller school, but the NCAA tournament and all that kind of stuff. It's an interesting argument or debate, I guess, if you're, if you have that choice. So, as we finish up any parting thoughts and then let people know if they're interested in your work or your blog, or how to find you, your website, linkedin, you know how can they do so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, any parting thought I really liked. One of your guests the other day said can you just be kind? I think mine would be centering around the joy. Don't get too caught up in the minutia and take a step back and make sure that you're finding the joy in your journey, and if you're not, then I'm a prime example of the curvy path that you can take to eventually get there. You're not. It's easy to get stuck when you're in the day to day, and so make sure that you have joy in your journey and, if not, start to make the adjustments to find it.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:But as far as finding me, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm also on Instagram, which I don't use very much, and my website is LinkedIn. Find me there, connect with me, message me Instagram. You can find me there too. You're going to get the same content, basically, that you got on LinkedIn, or I'll send you some funny reels, maybe, but LinkedIn is the place to find me.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Yeah Well, I'll link both your LinkedIn and your website in the show notes. It was great meeting you. It's the first time we've gotten a chance to speak. I love your story. I really appreciate all your insight into your process and your work. And continued success to you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and, yes, it was great speaking in person.
Speaker 1:Awesome. See you, Jamie.
Speaker 2:All right, see ya.