The Real You
1:1 Long-Form Interviews with Interesting People Doing Amazing Things
In-depth discussion of people's journeys to tap into their full potential and find ways to be the truest version of themselves.
The Real You
EP42: Angie Callen on Office Space, Classic Rock, and the Business of Coaching
Angie Callen went from civil engineer to coach for high-performing leaders—and she didn’t take the straight path to get there. In this episode, she shares how art galleries, nonprofits, and burnout led her to a thriving coaching business.
We talk LinkedIn strategy that actually works, the mindset traps most coaches fall into, and why storytelling beats step-by-step tips every time.
Highlights:
- Why most coaches want to coach—but forget they’re running a business
- The LinkedIn content shift that builds trust instead of just teaching
- Mindset, sales, and niche evolution (and why failure is content gold)
- What’s killing earning potential for talented coaches
- Why being a great listener beats being a great closer
If you're a coach or creative pro trying to grow a business without burning out, this one's for you.
➝ Connect with Angie: https://careerbenders.com/ or https://www.linkedin.com/in/angiecallen/
David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/
David's Website: https://davidjyoung.me/
Welcome to the Real you Podcast. This is episode 42. I'm David Young, your host. I'm a LinkedIn content and business coach. I launched this podcast in March of 2024. I find interesting people doing amazing things. Today, I'm joined by Angie Cowan, an executive and business coach for high-performing leaders and coaches. We will discuss her journey, how she uses LinkedIn, the joys and frustrations of trying to find your path as a solopreneur. Now she supports other founders and business owners. She's based in Denver, Colorado, is a fellow classic rock band and this week I learned she's also a fan of the movie Office Space. I mean, who isn't, but who isn't Right? We will talk about that, and more so after a whole bunch of technical glitches and delays. Thanks for finally being here.
Speaker 2:We are committed to bringing you this conversation everyone, and you should be glad for it.
Speaker 1:We started on Riverside, we went to Zoom, we left Zoom and went to StreamYard and we are back on Zoom for the first time ever in my 40 plus episodes. So who knows what you're going to get out of this, but we are giving it a very, very hard college try this, but we are giving it a very, very hard college try and uh, apparently I am a an interesting person doing inspiring things.
Speaker 1:So thanks, that's cool. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you're in the mountains, um you're. You're a big hiker, you like music and office space like we have so much to cover we have lots to talk about you had the pink colloid shirt on. You're doing a little house house project recently yep, exactly, I uh.
Speaker 2:I stole that sweatshirt from my husband, who has no reason owning it because he does not know classic rock very well and he would be mortified if I told you that on a program where other people are actually listening, um, and it's my diy sweatshirt. It is special when you, uh, when you see if you ever get a program where other people are actually listening and it's my DIY sweatshirt. It is special when you see If you ever get a Zoom with me wearing the Pink Floyd sweatshirt. You've moved into a different category of my connections.
Speaker 1:I will add that to the mental notes.
Speaker 2:Put that on your bingo card, David.
Speaker 1:I'm not a huge Pink Floyd fan, but I do like classic rock in general. Same, but yeah, I can. Well, it's interesting now because classic rock is now like all of the 90s.
Speaker 2:It is not. It is not. I was listening to an oldie station one day and Pearl Jam came on and I think I had a heart attack in the driver's seat and I was. I was like, no, no, no, no. Classic rock was made in the 60s and 70s period. It is not in reference to how long ago it was from today.
Speaker 1:This is true, but Pearl Jam has been around for 35 years, so they're moving backwards.
Speaker 2:Yet I haven't aged a day.
Speaker 1:Eddie has.
Speaker 2:Oh, good old Eddie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he looks a lot like. My wife saw a picture of him recently. She goes he looks like my aunt, like one of my old aunts. What is he doing? Like I'm not sure, I don't know. I don't know what look he's going for, but it's not a great idea. And then I saw pictures of, I guess, richie Sambora's coming back to Bon Jovi or they're trying to get back together or something. I'm not sure. Anyway, I saw a picture of Bon Jovi and him and they both looked. They did not look good Either one of them.
Speaker 2:So I don't know what these rock guys are doing later in life. But it's I don't recommend it. It probably involves too many drugs in early life and a whole lot of plastic surgery recently. That just isn't working out into a very good cocktail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point, Because the yeah, the Sambora one, that definitely looked like you had some work done. There was a lot of smooth, a lot of smooth and stretched skin in that picture. But yeah, anyway, I mean it's a rough life when you do that or when you're on the road all the time and you know your hours are off and, like you said, like the alcohol and drugs and traveling, it's like, yeah, but other than Keith Richards and Mick Jagger, it doesn't wear overly well.
Speaker 1:And even then, but they're like in their 80s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very true when you think about it. I find it interesting, speaking of the 90s, that the 90s are like a thing again. So I have nieces that are in their early 20s and they will show up wearing like Nickelback and Matchbox 20s T-shirts and I'm like what's going on here? Is it just a thing that we tend to like the music that's like 20 years older, Basically the music our parents listened to at the formative years, years older, Basically the music our parents listened to at the formative years? I don't know, there's got to be some sort of data point around that, but I still find it slightly disturbing.
Speaker 1:I find it slightly disturbing that anybody would wear a Nickelback shirt Better than the wallflowers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe I didn't think about that. I have a buddy. He's a teacher. He teaches eighth grade math and I don't know if he still does this, but for a while he's been doing it for a long time. Kids would come into the class and they'd be wearing, you know, guns N' Roses. They'd have some type of rock T-shirt on. He would say, like you have to be able to name five songs, you can never wear that shirt again. Like don't walk in here with this. Like famous popular band and you don't know anything about them. So like dip it. And they'd be like wait what? He'd like five songs, and you know they're.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, I don't know. I highly respect that. Yeah, I'm also side note, not as big of a Pink Floyd fan as you'd think for having my favorite sweatshirt with their logo. I fall more into the Led Zeppelin heavy guitar riff type of stuff more so than the jam bandy land.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same Pink Floyd's too slow. My wife's a big. She's a big jam bander so she loves the dead and fish. Spent enough time with her and I've listened to enough of it that I can do some of it. Um, but I grow tired pretty quickly. I always joke like this is gonna be a long song. Um, you know, you go to a, you go to a fish concert. You're like eight, so three and a half hours long.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I like and you don't really know where any one song ends and the next one begins yeah the same yeah, I honestly I like the heavier, like I like sabbath and van halen, zeppelin, for sure, the who, um, yeah, I like the real, like guitar driven yep, like the heavy guitar and rock. That's why I like pearl jam so much, because I just thought the guitar work was always, was always so good, um, although I will say I think their most recent probably five or six albums have gotten a little bit away from it. So I'm like a first five Pearl Jam. I think those are really quite good and then after Yield I go pretty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, og Pearl Jam. My ultimate favorite, which I guess is it's not so much black, it's not so much classic rock inspired by classic rock, fringe era. The black crows are my favorite yeah, I like the black crows.
Speaker 1:Um remedy might be my favorite song of theirs um robinson's are interesting, they're.
Speaker 2:They're interesting guys, interesting relationship yeah, finally, after like 30 years of making music and they're in their 60s, they figured out how to actually get along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, anyway, I can talk. I mean, I can talk, I can do all I can start a podcast on music.
Speaker 2:Do we now have a podcast randomly?
Speaker 1:talking about music, because I'm in. Yeah, we can just do.
Speaker 2:As long as it is nothing past about the year 2008, because then I'm useless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you've got. You got me by like eight years. So there's a show. Have you ever seen the show beats of them with jamie pops.
Speaker 2:You know what that show is no, but I need to watch it yeah, so it's a.
Speaker 1:It's like a modern name, that tune kind of. So it's. The idea is that the app, shazam, can name any song in like five seconds and the end of the show is you try to. You have to name songs that quickly, but before that it's a competition, so there's three teams of two and then there's like categories and whatnot. Anyway, you, they play something, and then you get four options and it's whoever can name it the fastest. Well, I can name, and it's whoever can name it the fastest Well, I can name. If I so, if I know the song, almost any rock, modern rock, classic rock, alternative, some rap, some like disco, like I can name it like almost instantly, like I can hear just the faintest note and I can tell you what it is, and I can probably tell you the song title too. If I don't know it, then it's not there.
Speaker 1:But, I'm only good up until like the late nineties, maybe like 99, 2000. And then I'm out. So like I need, like my wife, or like my oldest son is almost 16, because they have listened, they've kept. I stopped listening to like radio music because it's because rock went away, right, it became pop and all synthesized and like Justin Bieber and you know Katy Perry and all that stuff, and I just don't have any use for it. So when those, so when those are the categories, I'm completely useless. But they're great, yeah, so it's right, so they're. So I looked into it. They've done like seven seasons. I don't know when the last one was out. So I looked into it because we're getting way off topic here. People are tuning in like what is, what is We've?
Speaker 2:never even gotten on topic so far. So y'all are just tuning into episode one of a totally new podcast.
Speaker 1:Where's the business and entrepreneurial LinkedIn talk? Like what am I listening to? I mean, you know, we started with Ted Glitches. We just we're going to go heavy music Anyway.
Speaker 1:So there have been a couple of times when someone could not name literally like sweet home, alabama, I mean the most, and that's just one example. But like songs that just literally anyone would know. You didn't have to know music, like oh yeah, I know that song, piano man, stuff like that. So I was like how are these people on the show? It didn't make any sense. So I looked into getting on the show. Now my oldest son is not old enough because I think you have to be 21, maybe 18, and what I realized in the process is that they don't actually bring people on that know music. That actually has nothing to do with it, it's all performative. So it's like will you dance? Like with Jamie Foxx, like will you be goofy? Will you like triple high five, double triple high five, the people to your left or right if they get one right, and that's like what the show is. So I was like oh, left or right.
Speaker 2:If they get one right and that's like what the show is, so I'll think, oh, so it's not really about like performing game show contestant not correct. Are you good at pub trivia, which is my jam, as long as we've got the sub 25 year old ringer?
Speaker 1:right, right. So then I was like, oh well, I'm never gonna get off because I don't care about any of that. I could name all those songs in about half a second.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you're not. You're exactly the opposite, because you are not interesting, right? You're not even any showmanship. Boom, I got it. Boom, I got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're like oh, this guy is too good. He's not going to dance but he knows all the song Anyway. So yeah, there's, if you, I'm sure it's streaming. It's a, it's a Fox show like on normal, so wherever you stream Fox stuff, but yeah, it's interesting. His daughter's like the DJ. Dave Fox is good. I mean he's an entertainer and does impressions and he sings and dances so he's like the perfect host. But yeah, it's good, interesting show. And I remember watching Name that Tune, like as a kid I watched a lot of game shows growing up. I'm 49.
Speaker 2:And I remember yeah because that's all there was. There's all there was to watch.
Speaker 1:Tic-Tac-Toe and Do-Good-Wild and Bob Barker obviously practiced Right, but they were the name that tune At the whole, like I can name that tune in. Like you know one note as a kid it didn't do much for me because there songs they were going like you up and stuff and I have no idea, um, so they did like a modern version of that. That would be cool, I'd be all right with that that would be fun.
Speaker 2:Motown, motown's the other thing I'm a ringer for, because my mom loved the temptations and the supremes. Um, so what else should we talk about on this now?
Speaker 1:music podcast well, we can talk about the Ghetto Boys song in Office Space Die, motherfucker, die, because that's that you did. You did the meme this week where the mirror Michael and Peter take the fax machine to the field and they destroy it with the baseball bat. It's one of the great scenes. I don't know if that's the name of the song. I know it's Ghetto Boys and I know that's the. That's what they play the all time that they're.
Speaker 2:They're hitting it and you can just hear you can just hear it in the in the background and I can't remember where in it's around. Maybe it's leading up to that scene, but peter's driving around the car and damn, it feels good to be gangsters on. So I always connect to the two and ever since I but this was just the other day everybody out there who's this is fresh in our minds. We're in, you're just in, one giant inside joke apparently that david and I are now best friends after one podcast on mine and this conversation and office space mean we're best friends and you're all in our inside joke. But I posted that picture and for some reason you, you, he posted the damn motherfucker die and then for some reason, all I could think about all day was damn, it feels good, feels good to be a gangster. That movie is just so clever, so good.
Speaker 1:Back to Ghetto Boys 2, apparently Mike. What's the guy I draw a blank on his last name, the Meebus and Butthead guy, mike Judge. Mike Judge, who wrote that, was apparently a big Ghetto Boys fan in the mid-90s. But yeah, that's when Peter, I don't know exactly sequence, I haven't seen it in a while. Yeah, that's when he's on his like totally off the deep end. Everybody thinks he's crazy. And then, yeah, they're listening to that. That's when he goes. I think that's when he takes the uh, the drill and undoes the door, because the door always shocks him and so he takes it, he sticks the lock off and then he's like cutting up the fish and he goes and meets with the bobs. And yeah, the whole, the meetings with the body, the meeting with the bobs is probably my favorite, that's probably my favorite scene, that's just the whole.
Speaker 2:Like that whole sequence is so great what I love about the movie office space is how pop culturey it became, even for people who've never worked in an office and don't have the context oh for sure, because I didn't work in an office, for my first jobs were in sales.
Speaker 1:I spent seven or eight years in sales. So I had a territory I was just driving around and it was 2008. I graduated from college in 98. And yeah, it was almost 10 years before I went into an office. But yeah, it was still funny, like just because. And then, once I started working in an office, I was like, oh, this is perfect.
Speaker 2:Whereas so that movie came out in 99. I graduated from. I was in college to be an engineer, graduated in 03. And I'm not even joking walked into a cubicle farm with gray cubicles that look just like office space in an engineering office when half the people you're working with are Miltons, and I was like, oh wow, it's actually true.
Speaker 1:So what is it that you actually do here? Well, I take the paper, take it. You don't actually deal with the customer. Well, like I'm a people person, I have people, you know, yep there you go.
Speaker 2:I'm a people person, I have people. Yep, there you go.
Speaker 1:Corporate accounts fail. That's a moment. Why do you ever think about going by, mike? Why should I change my name? He's the one who sucks.
Speaker 2:I just want to know where your TPS report is.
Speaker 1:Did you not get the memo? Yeah, I got it. I got it. We'll get you another. We'll get you another. I got it, I got it. We'll get you another. We'll get you another. I got it. I got it right here.
Speaker 2:I think it would be really funny. I mean, since they're remaking everything from our generation to appeal to the children that our generation has had, I think it would be really interesting to see Office Space in 2025. Right With, like, the digital version of Office Space.
Speaker 1:Like, oh, did you get my email? Yeah, you know it's funny. So when I was so, I started at Cubicle in 08 and did that for about 10 years, and then remote work and I came in, but at my darkest. So I had about four years 14-ish to through 17, where I was just in really ill-fitting roles and in the office, in the cubicle, but just like I hated I really hated life and my existence was horrific. Um, and so I passed the time.
Speaker 1:I would listen to podcasts and read books, but I would take notes. I had this like notebook, like two things one, the stand-up comedy material for all the stupid shit that it said, like the catchphrases and just like, how often do you say hi to somebody? Like if you see them same person, like twice a day, do I say hi the second time? Like I think I should get a pass, like I don't think I'd say hi again, but I'll see him a third time. Like do I just give by with no acknowledgement? Like I just didn't know, Anyway, so the second part was I had this idea for what you're kind of.
Speaker 1:What you're talking about is I wanted to write, even though I'm not a writer, like a, a much more like significantly more swearing, like significantly more depressing of just what it's really like, Like it literally just can take your soul. Uh, if you spend too much time there, um, like I would go. There were some days where I would just go sit in my car for like an hour. I would just stare at the building and I'd have to will myself to like go back in Cause. It felt like a prison, like like I just I couldn't believe that I was voluntarily like subjecting myself to do that. I was like yeah, they're not even paying.
Speaker 1:they're not even paying me that much like I'll find another job, like why am I going to go back in there? And I knew that I would like eventually, I knew I would get out of my car and like swipe my badge and go up the stairs, plop down to my desk and open up my spreadsheet and be like time, is it 1.12. All right, four, three hours and 48 more minutes, and they're finally going to let me go.
Speaker 2:And you all have to realize there was no like scrolling LinkedIn. Then there was no distractions to be had because, like social media, the internet was barely a thing. And then the antidote to the pain and suffering of a cubicle farm was the open office environment, which now has been proven to be the worst possible transition that the office environment could have ever made for any kind of productivity. Yeah, I want to sit on my computer and stare at you.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to look down a hundred yards and I want to see every head above the desk. I want to hear everything.
Speaker 2:I want to hear every single one of them talking on the phone, please.
Speaker 1:Awesome, no distractions whatsoever. Yeah, cause when I first started in that building we had the old school high partitions, like the 60 partitions, which obviously comparatively is a lot better. So really it was just I could see the person next to me and I could see the person catty corner, so I could really just see two other people. It wasn't great.
Speaker 2:And for me, I'm like five feet tall so I couldn't even like tippy toe up over those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we were part of the. We saw it go from that to like the three foot, you know, uniform across and then you just I remember we were just looking down and I was like, oh, I used to be able to see one person. Now I see 75. Well, that's beautiful yeah, and now. Now we're all just trying to be remote no, we are just trying to stay home office where we just like where we're always alone together what um?
Speaker 1:so what did you be of careers and offices? So, like, where did you? You've been doing coaching and, uh, consulting for while. But like, where did you get your start? Like, what did you do?
Speaker 2:So I was a civil engineer for the first seven years of my career. So my claim to fame now is that I am a recovering engineer who loves people, because it was never a career path that was really right for my personality and strengths. But I was a math teacher's kid and didn't know what I wanted to do when I was graduating high school and dad says and you're good at math, science, math and science, you should go be an engineer. And I picked civil engineering because it's the engineering discipline where you get to talk to people the most Newsflash for everyone. If you're choosing an engineering discipline based on the amount of communication it involves, you should probably bark up another tree.
Speaker 1:I got a biodigger because I thought I would stop making sounds smart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was very.
Speaker 2:I was like very interesting at parties oh, you're a female engineer, yes, I am which definitely created a little identity crisis when I decided to finally hang it up in the middle of the great recession and went through a giant career change with no plan.
Speaker 2:That seemed like a great thing to do at the time but I just I was done and the recession really tanked the built world industry, like the real estate construction industry, was really really hurt by the 08 downturn and so just everything I was working towards and everything that gave me the opportunity to use my strengths and skills within the engineering environment was kind of stripped away Because I was a little too early in my career at that point in time, even though I had been pushed up the ladder quickly, I just couldn't punch punch at that weight once there was slim pickings for work and that's when I was like OK, I'm out of here. And, if I'm honest, I took the first thing that came along and it was managing an art gallery for a single artist and she just happened to kind of be batshit crazy. So I went from 10,000 plus person worldwide engineering firm to a single artist, small business Baptism by fire.
Speaker 1:Talk about opposites.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How long did you do that?
Speaker 2:Only a year because the gallery ended up closing and that's a story for another day.
Speaker 2:But it was interesting because I think it was my first taste of, let's say, an entrepreneurial environment or at least a small business environment, which is not anything I was ever taught.
Speaker 2:That's not something we were taught in the late 90s and early 2000s in school, especially in Podunkville, pennsylvania, where I grew up, and it was my first kind of exposure and taste to that is when, I think in hindsight and maybe there were some seeds that were planted there I ended up moving on and worked in the nonprofit sector for like seven years, which was never anything on my radar, it was just kind of somewhere I stumbled and it helped me kind of grow back up into a leadership role and I I ran an organization as an executive director for like four and a half years and that's where a lot of stuff started coming together, uh, where I kind of found myself doing the things I love to do versus trying to seek out what those were.
Speaker 2:And uh, the it was a grassroots organization, had a ton of growth potential, and so that's where I could tap into a lot of that. You know, I like to build things, I like to figure out how to monetize the things I built and it really created the entrepreneurial spark that paved the way into the coaching business that I've had for the last seven and a half years.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, I mean, it all kind of works out for a reason and you kind of move. It kind of moves you along, so you're know able to do that. What, um, how do you typically work, like, who do you, how do you find clients to work with? And then like, in favor of the business coaching and entrepreneurial coaching, how do you? How do you go about that, like, how do you try to help them, how do you try to find out, like, what the faint points are?
Speaker 2:so again at that it kind of goes back to what you said is like things tend to work out and you end up like being where you're supposed to be. For me, one type of coaching led to the other, and so for the first like five of the last seven and a half years, I really specialized in career and job search coaching, primarily in the tech sector, since that was somewhere my former engineering qualifications kind of resonated and I came into the career coaching space in what I think was kind of the emergence of it, and so I was able to kind of ride a wave that was on the upswing. And you know, I started by just going out and networking my ass off. To be honest, I just played the in-person card a ton. I live way up in the mountains in Colorado and I would drive three and a half hours one way to Denver like two or three times a month to just go to events, meet people and build a network. And that really played out while we waited for, like the referrals and the organic and all that kind of stuff to pick up, and now we have a nice little ecosystem there.
Speaker 2:But what's been interesting is it's funny when you think you're doing the work you're supposed to do and that you're doing the work that's purposeful and that work actually creates the foundation for, like, the thing you're really supposed to be doing, which is what paved the way for the business and entrepreneurship stuff, because me, building a successful business helped me realize how much I love helping other people do that, and so now I'm really leaning into this kind of business of coaching and leveraging the success I've had in building a coaching business to kind of drive exposure and interest in other people, helping me do the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I like the evolution and like the path and I think there's such a big space for it because post-COVID, the last couple of years of layoffs, there's a lot more.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's no real such like job security is a myth. Right, I'll let you go at any time, but for the most part it feels safer um, the every two-week paycheck, once a month paycheck, versus working for yourself and unpredictable revenue and all that. But I think a lot more people are at least considering it or stepping into it because they're like well, I'm not sure, I don't think my job's quite as secure as it used to be and you know AI, there's so many factors. So I think there's more and more people with LinkedIn, especially shifting away from the virtual resume and just how to get another job, to like how to build a business, and there's obviously a lot of coaches and so many different things to coach, and so I think it will continue, you know, to evolve. When did you start kind of looking at LinkedIn and kind of using LinkedIn, as you know, part of your marketing?
Speaker 2:I think right away I started my whole business on LinkedIn. I've caught my first. My first paid client came because I commented on someone else's post and I got a DM and I was shocked when she was like, here's my credit card. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm actually doing this thing, cause you know, I when I do things, I kind of just do them. I don't go and say, okay, what are other people doing? I don't get into analysis, paralysis. I have a speed of implementation that can sometimes be reckless Please refer to aforementioned jumping unplanned career change in the middle of the great recession.
Speaker 2:And so I just kind of was like I have a perspective on this and I'm going to put it out there. On LinkedIn and a recruiter posted something about how she doesn't help people change careers, she just helps people find jobs. And at that point that's what I wanted to help people do. Because I had done it and I was like the first I was, I was using a LinkedIn strategy. I didn't know it was a strategy at the time.
Speaker 2:I was the first one on the comments like, well, people change careers. And then there was ding, the person who wanted to change careers was was in my inbox and so I knew I was on to something. Then the one thing I will say that I kind of regret a little bit is I got so busy during the pandemic years that I really let what was a very consistent LinkedIn effort start to fade and I had to do a big lift to get that back, which kind of stunk, because there was a huge influx of people during those years and now gaining visibility is harder than it was had I kept up that momentum. So I guess there's a little learning that came out of it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the people it's funny, the people that started, you know, like the 1920 21, it has changed so much but they're still teaching a lot of that same playbook, especially like the bigger creators. I feel so bad for people that are like investing and buying in that and running that playbook because it simply doesn't work anymore and unless you have 500,000 followers that it does. Um, but yeah, the days of just posting and waiting for clients like they're pretty much over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to tell somebody that the other day because they're like you know, I'm doing all this content on LinkedIn and I'm not getting any clients from it. I'm like you have to change your expectations of what LinkedIn is going to do for you and your business or your brand. I find it now is more. It's a credibility builder. There are some statistics on if somebody comes and looks at your profile, their buyer sentiment skyrockets. So, like it does, it has residual, it has indirect the direct lead generation on it is not gonna happen quite as much because there's so much happening there and at the same time, we've got AI, which has enabled everybody to be a content creator just not very well. And so there's also. There's not only a lot going on, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I saw a post the other day that talked about like power of storytelling and telling like your story, because that's like the one thing that AI telling and telling like your story, because that's like the one thing that ai apt can't just create that.
Speaker 1:So, um, like there'll be a bigger emphasis on the platform of like your lived experience background, if what your thoughts we can. All you know. The how-to posts, I think are dead because there's no shortage of resources now to learn how to do literally anything. Um, so like. I don't need a content creator to like spell that out for me.
Speaker 2:I I'm glad you said that because it's funny. So I, you know, I spent probably three years really being consistent with LinkedIn. Didn't go dark, but went quiet during the let's call it the growth years of LinkedIn and came back two years ago with a vengeance and I was like I need to get consistent on here. It's a huge brand builder for the space that I'm in. I'm gonna get you know, I'm gonna be on this mission to get to a certain level of follower count, not because I wanted the metric, because I knew it would have to help me, what it would make me do.
Speaker 2:And I went back to the content strategy that I had, you know, when I was starting out and having really great success and great traction pre-recession, which was heavily researched, long form, knowledge-based here's 10 things to put on your resume and it was like freaking crickets. I go post a picture of my beat up, bruised and cut up legs because I fell over on my mountain bike and it's like the best post I've had all year. And so I started thinking I'm like, okay, what people want to consume here is different. Now is it? It's always tied back to some sort of anecdote. Right, it's still within the business brand, but the more I think, the more human and more authentic your content is clearly, the more people want to gravitate towards it because they know it came from you and wasn't primarily AI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I tell almost all my clients like the more of like that type of story, like falling off a bike or just something interesting that happened to you or whatever, it doesn't matter Like kids, pets, travel, food, hobbies, like that type of stuff, like you'll really like it, like they like to see it humanizes you, they like to see things you're doing. Um, you know, obviously we're all doing stuff besides just posting on linkedin or whatever the businesses and lives and stuff, and so that's like you said, that's what draws people in and then obviously, if they're interested in the actual business, then that's just another way to do it. Um, but yeah, I still, you still see a lot of people of like. You know, like you probably see a lot of like the billboard quotes, like the adam gray quotes, and it's like I don't need to see any quotes like I I literally could see a thousand quotes in five seconds. If I want to see a quote like I don't need you to put it, just scroll through instagram. Yeah, right, it's like and it's yeah it's an.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting animal because it isn't the long form knowledge-based mini blogs, almost that it used to be, also because people don't read that much anymore. Sorry, y'all you don't, but it also is not the same strategy and the same content that works on instagram, facebook and tiktok to me doesn't resonate because it's that it's the memes, it's's these like the, the screen grabs of a I still call it Twitter quote, like that kind of stuff I'm just like, okay, scroll past. I'm not inclined to to engage in it because it it feels out of context and it doesn't, to me, spark discussion. It's a scroll by versus something that is human and life-based, with a professional anecdote that that to me like that's, that's the authentic kind of stuff that I think people seem to want to engage in, especially at a time when there's a shift in the whole kind of work-life dynamic yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Um, but I think sharing like those stories and the behind the scenes of like what you're working on and your thought process about working on it. Like I had an offer, I did a small group coaching program. I had four people. I launched a second version of it with testimonials and I got zero people, um, so I thought like nothing would be. But like I had people that vouched for like it's validity and quality and how much they got out of it. So I was like you know, other people out there are going to see that and be like oh, like I'm in. Nope, Everybody was out. So like on Monday I'm probably going to write a post that like here's how to sign zero people into your second group coaching cohort and that will get a ton of traction and comments.
Speaker 1:Right, because it will, because, like and I'll do it in a funny, like making fun of myself kind of way, but like it's real, like you don't see a lot of stories Like you see a lot of like I made 10,000 this month or crossed X revenue in the last year. Do you see a lot of those? I don't know how I'm assuming a lot of that's made up, because you don't see a lot of screenshots and I don't see a great QuickBooks links to show me that. But you can say whatever you want. Anyway, you don't see a lot of like hey, I launched a program and literally signed no people. So I think in my mind, like you know, add some credibility. Like I'm not out here just being like I'm so great, I signed so many people like no, I signed none.
Speaker 2:And that goes back to a shameless plug. Any of you listening should go grab the episode of no More Mondays that David is on last week, because this is something you brought to that conversation, which is our extreme risk aversion and extreme fear of failure, is so badly that we can't actually say, hey, I failed, but here's what I learned from it and that's why people gravitate towards it because it's human and it's imperfect, which we all are. Newsflash.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100 percent, and that's and that's what I'm going to do in the post, because I'll start thinking about it in my head is like I'm going to kind of go through like my thought process and what I did, and then where I think, like that I went wrong and if I were to do it again like here's, like here's what I would. If, if you're out there thinking of doing something similar, like consider this doing it so there'll be some takeaways I could be wrong, I could be off base. That doesn't really matter, it's just my opinion on the way that it transpired. But, um, yeah, so I and I like people that do that, where they talk real and that you know they it's kind of they call it building in public, which I think is a little bit too cliched. But the same principle where you're just like sharing like what you're doing and what's working and what's not, um, and yeah, I think, and I, I think anytime you're working on something.
Speaker 1:Not that this is new for me, but it's a little bit new. Most of what I did was one-to-one. Yeah, there's always risk, right, there's always like I'm not going to do that. That doesn't work for me.
Speaker 2:You can always find a reason, excuse, excuse. You can always find a reason not to do something.
Speaker 1:Always.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, for sure. There's always the there's always. It's always not the right time. There's all it always is going to be oh, I need more money or they. I'm going to wait for this, like you know, stars to align kind of situation, but ultimately, all you're doing is delaying something that probably should be inevitable, and the best time to do the inevitable is right now, and the worst thing that's going to happen is you go back to where you were before. That's the thing is. We tend to like catastrophize this stuff in our minds. When, really, when you look at it and you reverse engineer the worst case scenario of the thing that you have so much fear around, it's like oh, worst thing is it doesn't work out. I either keep doing or go back to doing what I'm doing, and now you have all that knowledge, and so I'm a I'm a big fan of the I don't necessarily know fail on purpose, but not not be so, so fearful of it that you don't you know, slip up now and then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like the fail forward, fail forward quickly, right yeah. And if you're the action taker, so even, like you said, sometimes to to the extreme, I think that's better in the long run because you just learn so much more. The doing and the action teaches you so much more than like reading more books or taking more courses or talking to people that are doing it like not, that that's not helpful and you can still supplement with that, but none of that will. I mean, I, I have an mba. I've learned more in the last year of trying to run this online coaching business than I ever did in two and a half years of marketing classes and finance classes and spreadsheets and made up scenarios Like, not that it wasn't valuable, I learned a lot, but I did way more, like if I was just sitting in a job interview.
Speaker 1:Now I'm just like, oh, like, I'll tell you all about marketing in a way that I never could have a year ago.
Speaker 2:I call it an RW MBA. Sometimes I'm tempted to put the letters after my name. Just be real cheeky and own it. But it's a real world. Mba.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's, that's the yeah, it's so true. I mean, it's like you said, it's the experience, the action, real people like you're talking to people and you have expenses and revenue and you're trying to sell and there's all these different ways to market and digital marketing and all this stuff, and then you're just like you're doing it all the time and you're just learning truly trial by fire. Or you're like reading a textbook and like doing like some scenario for like nine years ago, where you're like analyzing it like it doesn't mean anything to you, like you don't even care. So yeah, yeah, totally, totally different I'm with you, I agree what.
Speaker 1:So how do you like? What is your? Not you have to get into like nuts and bolts of your program, but when you find like a, let's say, a business owner needing help in the entrepreneurial space, like like, what is your process in terms of like? How are you walking through identifying like what they're doing and then helping them get like where they want to go?
Speaker 2:I focus real a lot on come back, come back to basics. I find, especially in the coaching space and that's where I really I really focus is kind of the business of coaching. I find that and there's nothing wrong with what I'm about to say, so I'm not shaming anybody A lot of people, most coaches, come into business because they want to coach before they want to own a business and so and that, I believe, is why the average, the average coach, makes like $56,000 a year. Right, and there's a certain limitation there because of the mentality around why they start and how they treat the endeavor. And so I've always looked at it as I want to build a brand. I want, you know, I want to build something through serving instead of instead of kind of this idea of like I'll serve and see what happens. And so you know, a lot of times I'm coming back and layering a level of intentionality and foundation underneath that. Ok, I want to go help people coach careers. Ok, who are they? What's their problems? What problems are you solving and how do you exhibit a unique value proposition to stand out in what's become a much more crowded space?
Speaker 2:The number of coaches has, I think it's doubled since 2019 and it's expected to continue on that growth track, which is fantastic. Competition is not a bad thing. It means there's demand, but it is harder to stand out and if you're not really clear on your message and who you're trying to serve, the domain of coaching that you want to specialize in you're going to kind of get lost in the shuffle. And a lot of times it's coming back to that foundational basics and in doing so and really look at like, how am I solutioning things? How am I packaging things into really high value things that are like no brainers to buy? You know, I've seen some really incredible things happen to businesses just by small tweaks and mindset shifts well, I think you know.
Speaker 1:So two things you said there that really stood out. The last one, the mindset shift, for sure. But the problem you solve, I think that's one of the biggest places where people either don't think enough about it or or don't. Um, in a market that, like you said, is getting more crowded, like you have to be very clear about why someone will work with you, like what exactly are you solving? I, I think too many people, and sometimes myself included, it's a little bit too vague or it's not quite specific enough, and so it's hard for people to then latch on to like what am I actually paying? What am I getting Right? And I think that is a problem.
Speaker 1:And the mindset, for sure. Simply, especially when you're getting started, there's so much up and down, there's such a huge learning curve because there's so many different areas where you have to excel. Like you have to be mentally prepared for the swings um, great months, followed by terrible months, followed by in between months and you're like what is happening? And you're kind of constantly playing the shuffle game of like what's working and what's not, and like do I cut bait with that? Is that good? Do I just need to tweak it do I need to scrap it, need to hire a new coach, right?
Speaker 2:can I just figure this out like there's, there's all these things you're like constantly modeling, and I think that's another issue where people like really struggle and the the patient, patience and consistency and trust are huge, which is a lot of what business coaching is is talking reason into people that try something for two weeks and assume it's not gonna work, because you hit the nail on the head. And now that I know that this is a show in which this is a PG-13 show, where I can swear I call that the entrepreneurial mind fuck. And it is these ups and downs, especially early on, but it never goes away entirely. You know, I have a multi six-figure business and I'm still sitting here sometimes going it's all gonna burn down tomorrow, right, like you have these incredible highs. Yay, I got my first client.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I haven't even had a sales call in a month. Oh my gosh. I had my first 10K month. Oh my gosh. This month is 3000. And you're on this, like you know, roller coaster, and if you don't find the consistent baseline and that level set within it to trust yourself and what you're doing, you are either going to throw up or get off that ride. The first stop it pulls, pulls into, and so if you want to have longevity, you really have to wrangle the mental game. Successful entrepreneurship, in my opinion, is 80% mindset.
Speaker 1:I totally agree and I don't know if that's talked about enough. I mean, there's a lot of content on like the mechanics and the structure and the offer and the marketing and all of that. You see a lot of that, which is important, but I don't think we see enough of what you're talking about and really being, hey, just mentally prepared for the ups and downs, but then also it's kind of that unwavering like confidence and belief, um, like in yourself and what you're doing, because if you don't believe it, other people aren't. Who?
Speaker 2:is exactly, and that's the thing is. If you don't believe in what you're doing and you have a complete conviction around it, how the heck are you going to sell it to somebody and feel good about it? Because that's the other thing, too, is being a conscious entrepreneur. An authentic entrepreneur is why we're not used car salesmen. But if you're not trusting in it, then why the heck are you out there hawking it on the streets?
Speaker 1:I thought that somebody wrote a post. Uh, it said something like best coaches who get like, are great with their clients and get the best results are the worst sales and marketers and the worst coaches are the best sales and marketers and it's like completely inverse and I thought that was interesting. I'd be curious to get like your take on that.
Speaker 2:I think that's not entirely true, uh, untrue. I think it's just and and the and it goes back to like the business versus the coach mentality. Uh, because and and that I love. I actually love selling and I feel like I'm a very good coach. So, uh, it's an interesting question to pose for somebody.
Speaker 2:But I only want to sell. And sell is a weird word. I also almost want to remove that from the equation, but since we're there, we'll just keep going. I, I only want to sell something to somebody if I truly believe it will help them and provide the value, and what I've done for myself is create things that are packed with so much value that they are very easy to present as a solution. So I don't have to sell them, I just have to put them in front of somebody in the context of the need. So I have actually taken sales out of the equation, and that's the game changer that can really bridge the gap between a person who feels bad charging people money for a service that has a market value and somebody who's great at selling whatever, whatever comes their way, but can't deliver on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting the way that you package it. I've seen more and more people go to like a tiered offering, like a good, better best, for lack of a better description. That's not something I've done myself, but I'm wondering. It seems like there's some good like psychology around that and it makes the buying decision a little bit easier, where you know just have like one offer, take it or leave it, cause people do typically like to choose, but obviously you can't give them too many choices. Then they can't make a choice, um, but I'm wondering if you do that or if you've experimented with the kind of three options the one in the middle, it depends.
Speaker 2:I'm a fan, so it is. There is something around the psychology. I mean, I think the sales psychology is just absolutely fascinating. If I had done, if now, if I knew what I knew now about careers and everything that was available now, back when I was choosing good old civil engineering because I get to talk to some people I would have been a behavioral economist, because I think this stuff is so fascinating.
Speaker 2:And the psychology of how and why people buy still roots into emotion and that's where I think the whole, going back to the fundamentals of you need to. You need to give them something that appeals to an emotion. We don't sell processes. Sell outcomes Doesn't mean you're giving them false hope. You're going to deliver on it. But that's the important part, you know, and that's also when it comes into the tier situation of it may or may not be appropriate for your business and how you sell.
Speaker 2:There is a lot of data to support that idea that most people will buy the middle option. However, I have found in the coaching world, at least in career and business coaching, two options is about as much as we can present because they're more complex. But I do like saying here's this throwaway, that's a downsell that gives you reference of cost to this bigger thing that I have now positioned to have so much value, it's a no brainer to buy. So why would I buy a scope of one when I could buy a scope of four at only double the cost? Right, it feels like you're getting, you know, 50% more or something like that in the psychology, and then you deliver on it and it builds the trust and everything like that.
Speaker 2:Anytime I have tried a three product approach is just too overwhelming for people. But I think it depends on kind of what you're doing. But what I do in a call, in a sales call, is I'm spending 20 minutes listening to somebody talk about where they're at in their business, what they're challenged by, where they feel like they need help, and so I've gathered the intelligence to then be the advisor and be the expert to say here's the right solution for the problem you presented by the way. Here's this other thing that's cheaper, but here's the right solution for the problem you presented by the way. Here's this other thing that's cheaper, but here's the right option for you. And it's a totally different approach to sales because it builds trust from the beginning and you're the one who's hearing them and you're building that coaching relationship and rapport from the first second you ever get on the phone, so it becomes very easy to convert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good point about the asking questions and listening. I think that's also something that should be talked more about. Like sales call is not get on and pitch your service and then like do you want it, yes or no. It's much more asking questions Because, like you said, you want to work with the right people, like you don't want to work with everyone. They might seem like a fit when they start describing what they're dealing with and where they want to go, and you're like you know what it's actually not what I do.
Speaker 1:Here's someone who does specialize in x, uh, which is why a network and referral partners are great both ways, um. So I think that's really important to emphasize is like asking those probing questions and really try to figure out, like what are they really struggling with and what do they want? Like what is their desired outcome? And then, does your product or solution actually deliver that? And if it does, then great, we're aligned. If it doesn't, saying yes to them or or pitching them when you're like I don't think this is actually going to work, like that's just going to end up causing way more headache than anything else yeah, I, I was saying reached.
Speaker 2:Everyone starts off on a sales call with me because I don't want to work with assholes. But I'll tell you this If you get to the end of the call and you don't, one of the best things I ever did for myself, because there's two things I am a fantastic salesperson Once there's two things I'm not good at. Well, I'm not good at upsells and resales. So, uh, you know, I feel once I sell you, I feel like there you go, you just got me. And the second thing I'm not fantastic at is saying to somebody no, I'm not your person unless I have the alternative. So I don't ever want to just be the no, I want to say the hey, this person's better. And once you build that resource in that community for yourself and you have some referral partners, it actually makes the fit conversation easier because you have options if they're not right. If you don't have that, then you feel guilty and you got to take them on.
Speaker 1:I don't have anyone else for you. I'll give it my best shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Well, you're not my fit and I don't know anything about your industry, but hey, why not?
Speaker 1:Give it a spin, see what happened. Um, yeah, and that's I mean, that's the other thing too. Like talking about like niche and like who you're serving. That's a, that's an evolution in and of itself. Like a lot of people are like, oh, I'm just going to pick a niche and that's my niche. Like probably the um, you can pick one, it's going to change. How do you start working with clients? Their problems are going to come and go. They're going to change and evolve. So, as your opposite of this whole, like just pick a lane Similar to like picking a career and staying for 40 years, like those days are over and picking one that you never leave is also like it's just way too much, way too much volatility out there. So like be ready to be flexible.
Speaker 2:And we all grow and evolve right. So for me, when I started and grew in career coaching, that was my zone of excellence. However, that now became a zone of competence, because it enabled and helped me to develop a new zone of genius, and that's the thing is like. We all are naturally growing and the beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is it allows us to continue growing, continue to evolve, continue to maybe shift careers and stay interested in what we're doing without having to change jobs, which is great for me, because I have a seven year itch and I haven't and I've scratched it, but I've scratched it by developing a sister brand and moving on to business of coaching from career coaching right, and I didn't have to go out and job search or do a whole giant career change because I created an ecosystem for myself that would support that that's well.
Speaker 1:That's well said. Um, wasn't it awesome? Thanks for your patience through, uh, all the, all the check glitches.
Speaker 2:It was worth it.
Speaker 1:So we'll see how this we're both recording. So we have to get. Something has to come from it.
Speaker 2:You're getting something from us.
Speaker 1:Any final, any final thoughts, takeaways, and then helping people find out more about you. Where can they, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:My biggest takeaway for everybody out there, no matter whether you're an employer or an entrepreneur, is you have more control and agency over your career than you think, and probably more than you're exercising, and my challenge to you is to leverage it. And if you need help doing that, you can find me at themoderncoachco. If you are a coach looking to grow your business and if you want to find out about more of the legacy career coaching stuff, you can check out careerbenderscom or just follow me in my antics on LinkedIn. I'm connected to this guy, so it's an easy way to find me.
Speaker 1:Love it. You might even see her at a home project covered in dust, rocking the Pink Floyd sweatshirt.
Speaker 2:That's right. I do have some drywall mud to go sand.
Speaker 1:So there you go awesome thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Appreciate your insight thanks for having me.